Config
Log for #openttd on 23rd May 2012:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
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10:01:27  <YO_LESTAT> hi all
10:01:34  *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
10:02:31  <Hazzard> Hi
10:03:27  <YO_LESTAT> created new starting point to challenge someone?
10:03:37  <YO_LESTAT> http://www.openttd.org/en/server/58730
10:05:00  <planetmaker> that will be a pleasure to those who speak Spanish but no English (we sometimes get them here)
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10:12:40  <YO_LESTAT> can enter any
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10:16:15  <planetmaker> YO_LESTAT: your language setting indicate that command of the Spanish language is at least recommended, though ;-)
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16:45:20  <Terkhen> hello
16:46:06  <Terkhen> meh, those guys never appear when I'm around
16:46:12  <Terkhen> and when they do, they ignore my private messages
16:47:19  <Terkhen> YO_LESTAT: you can try to advertise your server at http://ttdistas.es/foro/
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17:38:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24267 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt french.txt korean.txt russian.txt spanish.txt): (log message trimmed)
17:38:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:38:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 9 changes by habell
17:38:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by OliTTD
17:38:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 185 changes by telk5093
17:38:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:38:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by
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17:54:18  <Wolf01> hello
17:54:35  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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18:16:38  * andythenorth experiments with Bootstrap css
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19:00:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24268 /trunk/src/ (53 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: Use the same colour scheme for the script selection window as in other comparable windows.
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20:41:09  <Terkhen> good night
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20:41:58  <Chris_Booth> gn
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20:46:18  <NataS> Guh
20:46:43  <NataS> why is there no good way to just make trains wait at a station untill the next train with the same orders shows up?
20:46:58  <NataS> timetables are complex as hell, and don't even do that well
20:47:17  <NataS> that's all you really need, and it's not that complex an action
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20:54:18  <Chris_Booth> NataS: you can
20:54:27  <Chris_Booth> you want me to show you how?
20:55:00  <Chris_Booth> if you use 2 logic gates you can make train wait until both bays are full then leave
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21:06:01  <Chris_Booth> NataS: https://www.dropbox.com/s/x318udum4gvqy12/Franingville%20Transport%2C%208th%20May%202051.png
21:06:05  <Chris_Booth> try something like that
21:07:06  <TinoDidriksen> 'cause that's not crazy at all...
21:07:20  <Chris_Booth> it is not crazy
21:07:31  <Chris_Booth> its a station with 2 notgates
21:07:40  <Chris_Booth> if empty don't let train pass
21:07:47  <TinoDidriksen> The suggestion of adding wait-for-event is sane. Programming in OTTD is less so.
21:07:48  <Chris_Booth> once both full train can pass
21:07:50  <Chris_Booth> its easy
21:08:18  <Chris_Booth> why do you need to program them into openttd when you can build them with trains?
21:09:34  <TinoDidriksen> Are trains turing complete yet?
21:10:16  <Chris_Booth> TinoDidriksen: how do you mean?
21:11:36  <TinoDidriksen> It's a measure of how feature-complete a programming environment is. If something is Turing-complete, then it can do anything.
21:14:45  <Chris_Booth> well you can program and logic gate with trains in openttd
21:14:50  <Chris_Booth> and make a counter
21:14:57  <Chris_Booth> so I guess the sky is the limit
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21:22:23  <NataS> that is crazy
21:22:40  <NataS> I would not be able to build that in a city
21:23:01  <NataS> and that sort of function should be built into the game, not a puzzle logic system
21:23:41  <NataS> my goal is to build a layout that is aesthetically pleasing and efficient.
21:23:45  <Chris_Booth> NataS: with very long tunnels that can be anywhere on a map
21:23:58  <NataS> that is space inefficient, unrealisic, and ugly
21:24:20  <NataS> and also, more complx than timetables
21:24:22  <Chris_Booth> openttd is not realistic
21:24:35  <NataS> oh boy here we go
21:24:44  <Chris_Booth> a train that 100 miles long?
21:24:56  <Chris_Booth> 1000 people working in a sky scraper?
21:25:26  <NataS> open ttd is not realistic, but that does not mean I want to build logic gates out of trains and use them to regulate my network
21:25:30  <NataS> Game realism is a thing
21:25:40  <Chris_Booth> lol
21:25:42  <NataS> realism is not an absolute.
21:25:50  <Chris_Booth> it is
21:26:02  <NataS> No game is realistic
21:26:02  * V453000 gets popcorn
21:26:12  <Chris_Booth> realism is the modeling of real items in an objective form
21:26:37  <Chris_Booth> V453000: O_o
21:26:59  <V453000> pointless to discuss :p
21:27:07  <Chris_Booth> fun
21:27:28  <NataS> Well I don't think I'll find (or want) a game that does that. I do want to build a trainset that looks nice, and can run lots of trains on a relitivly simple layout without jamming
21:27:39  <Chris_Booth> when someone asks me how to regulate trains so they only enter a station if approached by both sides
21:27:43  <NataS> and regulate itself without having to buld absurd looking logic gates out of train cars
21:28:05  <Chris_Booth> I then give them a very good solution and they say that is unrealistic and ugly that is not very helpful
21:28:11  <V453000> even if the game offers you to actually build complicated things that are useful for the network?
21:28:12  <NataS> I do not start up OTTD looking to build a rube golberg machine
21:28:59  <V453000> after all, define playing "realistically" ... refusing "too complicated" solutions?
21:30:05  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:30:12  <Chris_Booth> V453000: I think that is a challenge to build the Rube Goldburg Machine :P
21:30:39  <V453000> no that isnt, logic without use for network is not my cup of tea
21:31:13  <Chris_Booth> you know what a Rube Goldberg Machine is?
21:31:27  <NataS> well I want to play a game about trains and not computers
21:31:36  <NataS> I want to move passingers and cargo
21:31:44  <NataS> and even if the game is "not realistic"
21:31:58  <NataS> I like to imagine there are little people inside the trains and stations
21:31:59  <Chris_Booth> NataS: you know we are just pulling your leg
21:32:09  <NataS> who should know how to schedule things
21:32:15  <Chris_Booth> everyone is here for the same reason. to play openttd
21:32:27  <NataS> without needing to assemble a huge computer out of trains
21:32:29  <Chris_Booth> how you play it and enjoy it is up to you
21:32:29  <V453000> but that is not what I asked about ... I am asking how do I play the game realistically, what is the style specific in
21:32:55  <NataS> like if 10000 people work in a skyscraper, why can't they do the logic gates?
21:33:04  <NataS> why does the logic gate have to be the size of a city?
21:33:28  <Chris_Booth> it doesn't have to be
21:33:34  <V453000> because it for example helps the whole network? And it does not have to be in the city
21:33:35  <Chris_Booth> you can make them more compact
21:34:03  <NataS> it helps the network, but it's a bigger leap in suspension of disbelief than OTTD's scale
21:34:19  <NataS> where trains are hundreds of miles long and can take years to get places
21:34:40  <NataS> the scale is easy to ignore
21:35:07  <Chris_Booth> I like openttd scale
21:35:11  <NataS> building logic gates on the other hand ruins imersion
21:35:14  <Chris_Booth> its easy to look at
21:35:19  <NataS> so do i, it works and looks pretty
21:36:25  <NataS> 1 house = 1 road = 1 train track is unrealistic, but it conveys visual information well, and is easy to simulate
21:36:39  <NataS> and looks charming
21:37:51  <opa> i pernoally don't like that you have to put extra tracks to get priorities working. it looks ugly
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21:38:15  <opa> *personally*
21:38:23  <NataS> yes, it's ugly, complex, and something the AI should be able to do itself
21:38:34  <V453000> lol k
21:38:35  <NataS> you should be able to assign priorities to trains
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21:38:56  <V453000> priorities have a lot more uses than just that one train > other
21:39:17  <Chris_Booth> V453000: this is the wrong channel for this
21:39:32  <NataS> how so?
21:39:32  <Chris_Booth> we should take this back to coop before we upset everyone
21:39:37  <V453000> just to point out that it cant be done by any orders
21:39:41  <NataS> but this is not coop
21:39:50  <NataS> this is talking about the mechanics of the game itself
21:39:53  <Chris_Booth> no it is not
21:39:56  <NataS> if anything, this belongs in dev
21:39:59  <NataS> :P
21:40:17  <Chris_Booth> how does building a prior or logic gate belong in dev?
21:40:25  <Chris_Booth> it belongs in a building channel
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21:41:13  <V453000> because we are obviously wrong and it needs to be made a lot simplier to noobs - there needs ot be a feature to instead of making gates for example, if I understand it right
21:41:36  <V453000> so that you could just build it isntead of actually learning to build it, and tweak it
21:41:54  <NataS> more or less
21:42:06  <NataS> logic gates are really metagamy
21:42:47  <NataS> i don't like to nerd bash, because I am a huge nerd, but advanced play in a game should not revolve around building complex logic gates
21:43:15  <NataS> i mean it's funny as an experiment, but it should not be "the way the game is played"
21:43:43  <V453000> it doesnt have to be logic gates in specific
21:44:09  <V453000> just talk in general, a feature which replaces something gameplay wise, but does not add depth to the ga me
21:44:36  <NataS> but it streamlines things
21:44:45  <V453000> be it signals on bridges, autorefit, or whatever else
21:44:52  <NataS> not all features have to add depth, optimization and streamlining
21:45:05  <V453000> no but they shouldnt reduce possibilities :p
21:45:18  <NataS> they make the game more accessible and less fustrating
21:45:25  <NataS> and I never said posibilities should be reduced.
21:45:33  <V453000> but that is what it does
21:45:42  <NataS> nothing is stoping somebody from building, say, a computer out of trains
21:45:56  <TinoDidriksen> wait-on-event would most certainly add gameplay depth, and would model how the real world works.
21:46:40  <V453000> well sure, but building a computer out of trains is also pretty pointless
21:47:07  <V453000> building logic mechanisms which allow you to do something which is not possible otherwise however can have a huge impact on the network
21:47:14  <NataS> it seems that any game with moving objects that behave in a deteministic way, will eventualy be made into a computer within a computer
21:47:23  <NataS> see also, Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft
21:47:28  <TinoDidriksen> The original problem was having a train wait for another train; this should not require building logic gates.
21:47:43  <opa> it's a nice curiosity that train network is turing complete
21:47:46  <opa> at least almost
21:47:50  <NataS> almost?
21:48:00  <NataS> what does it need to be turing complete?
21:48:10  <opa> well theres no infinite tape memory
21:48:14  <V453000> I dont know DF, but I think Minecraft is a lot different, it has nothing to tell if you are succeeding or not, just 100% sandbox. In OpenTTD trains jam
21:48:21  <opa> are am i remembering something wrong
21:48:33  <NataS> and has anybody made a computer out of source engine physics?
21:49:08  <opa> are -> or
21:49:08  <NataS> V453000, in minecraft redstone can be used to make logic gates, people have even made games inside of it
21:49:19  <V453000> yes I know but that doesnt matter
21:49:20  <NataS> including a highly simple version of minecraft itself
21:49:29  <opa> "to dawg..."
21:49:34  <V453000> nothing in the game tells you if it is useful for something
21:49:35  <opa> argh these typos...
21:49:52  <V453000> but in openttd you can make logic mechanisms which do help your network
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21:50:24  <V453000> improve flow, improve spread of trains, or just make the network work completely automatically, many things
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21:50:48  <TinoDidriksen> opa, the infinite tape is for a Turing machine. For something to be Turing complete it just has to support all the operations that one can do given an infinite tape.
21:51:30  <NataS> yeah but it feels wrong to have to build a logic gate instead of just put and order to leave station when another train (in same group) approaches
21:51:33  <opa> ah, ok
21:52:04  <NataS> what's the diffrence between a Von Newman machine and a Turring machine?
21:52:26  <NataS> (the computer not the self replicating spacecraft)
21:52:42  <NataS> (which is only called a von newman machine due to linquistic coruption)
21:53:13  <V453000> if it is "wrong", then there has to be a better option how to do that, otherwise it is automatically best option/only option/right
21:53:35  <NataS> yeah, I should be able to set that in the orders list
21:53:54  <NataS> there are already some impressive complex/powerfull options avalable there
21:53:54  <V453000> such an option isnt in the game
21:54:01  <TinoDidriksen> The Von Neumann machine is much more practical. A Turing machine is theoretical. A Von Neumann machine is basically how a modern computer is constructed...
21:55:04  <TinoDidriksen> A Turing machine has 2 parts: Infinite tape, and a read/write head.
21:56:11  <NataS> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Nobili_Pesavento_2reps.png
21:56:32  <NataS> it's confusing, because a universal constructor also involves a long tape trailing out of it
21:56:59  <NataS> too bad trains can't build things in OTTD
21:57:15  <NataS> then we could build a network that was self regulating, and self expanding
21:57:17  <NataS> :P
21:58:23  <V453000> just make an AI which builds SML with magic bulldozer
22:00:19  <NataS> if you have to code an AI externaly, you don't need self regulating networks or anything
22:00:46  <V453000> :P
22:01:06  <V453000> why would you do that anyway
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22:06:13  <NataS> i just like the ideal of universal constructors
22:06:44  <V453000> well thats cute but how about to actually play the game instead :D
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22:07:54  <NataS> and that's what I have to say about using logic gates to regulate a network
22:07:56  <NataS> :P
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22:13:09  <V453000> haha :D
22:14:20  <Nat_aS> this network could use some self regulation
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