Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:25:21 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 00:43:14 <Wolf01> 'night all 00:43:18 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host11-216-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 00:46:27 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:51:45 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:53:27 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:54:03 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-67-216.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:55:02 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 01:20:25 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:43:17 *** wlee [c715b090@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 01:43:53 <wlee> Is there any way to give myself money with a command or something? 01:44:16 *** wlee [c715b090@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 01:44:30 *** wlee [c715b090@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 01:44:37 *** wlee [c715b090@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [] 01:51:01 *** fjb [~frank@p5794167A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:52:01 *** Phr33d0m [~n0kS@2001:470:d:b0e:bad:defa:ce:30] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:55:40 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 01:57:52 *** Phr33d0m [~n0kS@Politeia.in] has joined #openttd 02:04:35 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:05:57 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:07:29 *** KnogleAFK [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [] 02:13:00 *** fjb [~frank@p5794167A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 02:33:11 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:3092:dcc2:13cd:a350] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:44:38 *** EyeMWing [~Wing@c-68-33-226-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 03:14:01 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.43.130.218] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:17:58 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-98-217.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:35:28 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:37:03 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 03:41:34 *** pugi_ [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-058-089.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 03:47:01 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-095-033-154-145.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:47:03 *** pugi_ is now known as pugi 05:46:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66D73.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:46:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD55D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 05:48:28 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-058-089.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 06:04:59 *** NataS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:41 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has joined #openttd 06:11:46 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 07:34:52 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:38:48 *** lugo [GBerten293@oxygen.evosurge.com] has quit [Quit: EvoSurge - Free & Premium IRC Bouncers on Demand - http://evosurge.com/] 07:47:22 <Terkhen> good morning 07:48:49 <Supercheese> salve 07:57:50 *** Warod [warod@lakka.kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:58:51 *** Defaultti [defaultti@kapsi.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:07:31 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Quit: PACKET_CLIENT_QUIT] 08:18:19 *** Defaultti [defaultti@kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 08:18:24 *** Warod [warod@lakka.kapsi.fi] has joined #openttd 08:28:20 <Supercheese> good night 08:28:32 <Supercheese> valete omnes 08:28:34 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]] 08:34:55 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B605.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 08:38:20 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 08:38:45 *** keoz [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 08:45:28 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 08:49:14 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 08:51:18 *** GBerten2936 [GBerten293@oxygen.evosurge.com] has joined #openttd 08:53:06 *** kamnet [4cb15be2@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:53:19 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 08:53:29 <kamnet> Ugh. orudge, are you awake yet? :-( 08:53:56 <andythenorth> sea level tunnels don't flood :P 08:55:19 <andythenorth> ha ha 08:55:32 <kamnet> gm andy! 08:55:34 <andythenorth> try build a depot on bulldozed sea, then building a train in it 08:59:41 <kamnet> Neat! 08:59:52 <kamnet> Not that I'd ever think to bulldoze the sea and build a depot on it, but... 09:00:04 * andythenorth ponders a grid based, sea level evil GS 09:00:08 <kamnet> Interesting way to randomly kill people 09:01:44 <Rubidium> just build airports near all towns and let the airplanes full load and fly to a closest airport. Then once you think you have enough planes, destroy all airports (the closed one last) 09:02:07 <Rubidium> s/closest/closed/ 09:02:42 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has joined #openttd 09:02:43 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:02:43 <kamnet> Wow... you guys are sadistic!! 09:03:11 <Rubidium> then you can say the sky is on fire as all planes will explode at once ;) 09:05:17 <andythenorth> Rubidium: new GS name: Body Count 09:05:42 *** MrDetermination [~MrDetermi@173-164-23-44-Nashville.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:49 <Alberth> moin 09:05:57 <andythenorth> 5 years to achieve n deaths 09:06:47 <Alberth> maybe I should a bit until andy has cooled down again 09:06:52 <Alberth> +leave 09:07:06 <andythenorth> Rubidium's idea, not mine :P 09:07:34 <andythenorth> he supplies the sick and twisted, I just provide the name ;) 09:08:00 <kamnet> Reminds me of playing Grand Theft Auto 09:08:08 <andythenorth> the game lacks ship sinking 09:08:16 <kamnet> back when the goal was to steal a bunch of cars. 09:08:24 <Alberth> 09:00:04 * andythenorth ponders a grid based, sea level evil GS <-- sure of that? 09:08:39 <kamnet> I actually had a few custom cars I made for it 09:08:50 <andythenorth> Alberth: oh yes sorry :P 09:09:04 * Alberth hugs andy 09:09:26 <andythenorth> wonder if we could make Bomber Man with GS 09:10:02 * Rubidium is already bored for today 09:10:09 <Alberth> wasn't there a topic about this stuff somewhen? 09:10:42 <andythenorth> boredom? 09:11:13 <Alberth> about making things explode and so 09:11:34 <kamnet> I really want to go to bed, family reunion today, but e-mail I got this morning has me paranoid and I can't log into my zernebok account to verify! 09:11:56 <andythenorth> how do vehicles crash? Is it a flag? 09:12:03 <andythenorth> and do all vehicles have it? 09:12:09 <andythenorth> and can it be exposed to GS arbitrarily? 09:12:21 <Alberth> kamnet: don't check email just before going to bed, as you cannot reply on it anyway :p 09:12:24 <kamnet> Just park 'em on the railroad tracks 09:12:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: it's a state afaik 09:12:54 <kamnet> Well I wasn't checking e-mail. I was goofing off on Facebook when the server owner contacted me 09:13:25 * andythenorth ponders various war-themed GS 09:13:33 <andythenorth> 'meh' to "war is not in scope" 09:14:49 <kamnet> Alternate working title: Suicide is Painless 09:16:00 <andythenorth> could use existing disasters 09:16:17 <andythenorth> to make a long-play version of Space Invaders 09:16:34 <andythenorth> 'play' by delivering weapons to the front line 09:16:44 <Rubidium> ship as much cubes as possible to a storage location ;) 09:16:51 <Rubidium> you got a little under one year 09:17:10 <andythenorth> or you get assimilated 09:17:53 <kamnet> Huzzah! Owen answered me. Now to get this fxied 09:20:23 <Rubidium> andythenorth: not the cubes I was thinking about 09:21:17 <Kjetil> These are not the cubes you are looking for ? 09:23:08 <andythenorth> Rubidium: so which cubes? 09:24:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: http://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/d83.png 09:25:21 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08e3a5.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:26:38 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:30:26 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 09:36:38 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B605.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:02 <kamnet> ? 09:39:16 <Zuu> ! 09:39:17 <Zuu> :-) 09:39:20 <Zuu> Hello 09:39:26 <kamnet> morning 09:41:29 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 09:41:39 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host11-216-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:42:19 <Wolf01> hello o/ 09:42:49 <Zuu> Hello Wolf01 09:47:54 <Alberth> moin 10:00:09 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.94.91] has joined #openttd 10:04:20 *** kamnet [4cb15be2@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:26:15 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [] 10:57:15 <andythenorth> so GS MP game or what? 10:58:04 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-21-135.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 11:02:13 <Alberth> lunch! 11:03:46 <Zuu> I was looking for what others have done regarding landscaping and AIs, and found this old thread. I still remember it and it would have been neat if it was available as an AI lib. http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=41175 11:05:09 <Zuu> My best found so far is some code that originate from NoCab that apparently SimpleAI uses that is said to be able to be given the north tile, width and height and determine the target height of land that reduces the cost/consequences of landscaping. 11:10:30 <Alberth> fancy! 11:12:48 <Alberth> does he compute the solution brute force, or does he do a minimization search? 11:13:10 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 11:13:13 <Kjetil> He does it in the cloud 11:13:32 <Kjetil> </pointy haired manager> 11:15:18 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:19:02 <Alberth> optimized trial and error :) 11:21:59 * andythenorth avoids signing into a lego forum :P 11:22:04 <andythenorth> I was only going to troll 11:22:23 <andythenorth> someone just mentioned that lego is a toy 11:22:33 <andythenorth> "omg, wtf do you mean lego is a toy?!?!?" 11:22:34 <andythenorth> :P 11:22:53 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 11:23:05 <andythenorth> "are you telling me that it's not a serious hobby for grown up men who want to create miniature worlds? You have destroyed my life's work" :P 11:23:19 <planetmaker> lego is serious. It's a serious disaster, if you build a super star destroyer and the half-finished wing crashes into its parts again 11:23:47 <planetmaker> (build time for the whole, three people together: 5 hours) 11:24:02 <andythenorth> shouldn't drink while building ;) 11:24:08 <andythenorth> don't tell me that beer wasn't the cause :P 11:24:13 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has joined #openttd 11:24:22 <planetmaker> I won't tell you. Might be awkwardly close to the truth ;-) 11:24:53 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:25:56 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-058-089.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 11:26:47 <andythenorth> MP GS? 11:26:52 <andythenorth> I have an hour or two 11:27:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: Zuu planetmaker Rubidium Hirundo Yexo V453000 et al? 11:27:08 <planetmaker> I've an appointment with a long bow 11:27:11 <andythenorth> ho 11:27:45 <andythenorth> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RMeaV2KypWg/TqFKhchD9TI/AAAAAAAAK6M/lTy1hKNqERk/s1600/longbow+Robin+Hood+statue+002.jpg 11:28:40 <planetmaker> I started the server for you though 11:28:44 <planetmaker> it was offline still 11:28:46 <andythenorth> ta 11:29:24 <planetmaker> it might now be running the title game or a randome 256² one 11:29:37 <planetmaker> but you (or others) know the commands :-) 11:30:54 <peter1138> playing a game? 11:31:29 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 11:31:52 *** APTX_ [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:32:14 <Terkhen> andythenorth: sorry, I'm coding :P 11:33:25 <Alberth> I am quite busy too, sorry 11:33:53 <peter1138> i'm busy doing nothing, working the whole day through 11:34:00 <peter1138> trying to find lots of things not to do 11:34:56 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 11:41:28 <Yexo> good afternoon 11:43:06 <Alberth> hi 11:45:52 <andythenorth> what is this 'coding' you speak of? 11:46:00 * andythenorth has not done any 'coding' for a long time 11:46:22 <Terkhen> andythenorth: "make scenarios suck less WRT NewGRFs" code 11:46:41 <andythenorth> ") 11:46:44 <andythenorth> :) 11:46:48 <Terkhen> it means that I'm smashing keys until things work like I want them to 11:47:13 <andythenorth> maybe I should code something 11:47:24 * Alberth pushes a few sandwiches towards Terkhen 11:47:37 <andythenorth> maybe I should release FIRS 1.0 11:47:42 <andythenorth> and then start on FIRS 2 11:47:48 <Alberth> we don't want you to starve while coding! 11:48:18 <Terkhen> Alberth: thanks but no need to worry, I'll leave the keyboard soon to prepare something to eat :P 11:48:46 <Alberth> I thought we didn't get a FIRS 1, or am I misteken with CHIPS? 11:49:39 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:49:40 *** APTX [APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:240:63ff:fefb:5994] has joined #openttd 11:49:49 <andythenorth> there was no FIRS 1 yet 11:50:13 <andythenorth> I am very decided on changing supplies behaviour 11:50:18 <andythenorth> and I don't want to keep old code around 11:50:26 <andythenorth> so maybe I ship FIRS 1 with old behaviour 11:50:37 <andythenorth> or shall I just not bother with that? :) 11:51:00 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps it was FISH then 11:51:40 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:52:09 <andythenorth> FISH there's no 1.0 11:53:22 <Alberth> importance of nice round numbers is overrated :) 11:55:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: could I persuade you to any more NoConomy thoughts? 11:55:42 <andythenorth> I am looking at FIRS tickets 11:55:54 <andythenorth> e.g. http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/4002 11:55:59 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 11:56:08 <andythenorth> ^ I can't increase the number of industries, because it's fixed by openttd 11:56:19 <Alberth> I am somewhat working on it, but without much succes so far 11:57:29 <Alberth> in fact I am doing code changes in that area in the hope to somewhat get an understanding of it 11:57:46 <andythenorth> ah 11:58:10 <andythenorth> I have some understanding of parts of industry_cmd.cpp 11:58:23 <andythenorth> I've read / fooled with most of it in the last few years 11:58:48 <Alberth> I am changing the newgrf_* source files 11:59:37 <Alberth> ie I think a callback should be added so newgrf can have control in some way 11:59:47 <andythenorth> yes 11:59:51 <Alberth> (or at least partly :p ) 12:00:13 <andythenorth> so there is already probability control 12:00:51 <Alberth> that's for industry types, this is a general setting imho 12:01:29 <Alberth> hmm, can we have multiple industry newgrfs at the same time? 12:02:31 <andythenorth> yes 12:02:37 <Yexo> in theory yes, in practice not 12:02:49 <andythenorth> ECS? 12:02:51 <peter1138> ecs? 12:02:52 <peter1138> heh 12:03:12 <Yexo> true, I was considering ECS as one, but it's indeed multiple grfs 12:03:58 <Alberth> ok, that is for added fun :) 12:04:01 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 12:18:54 <FLHerne> Would a power-station addon to FIRS be useful/practical? 12:19:10 <andythenorth> it would be easy to code 12:19:14 <andythenorth> why not test it? 12:19:15 * FLHerne was considering one as a thing to do after simple objecttiles :-) 12:19:24 <FLHerne> That was sort of the idea :P 12:19:29 <andythenorth> there are spare industry IDs, you add no cargo 12:19:30 <andythenorth> easy 12:19:37 <andythenorth> just reintroduce default power station 12:19:47 <andythenorth> grf order might matter, not sure 12:19:54 <andythenorth> industry ID might matter too 12:20:05 <FLHerne> I wanted incinerators and wind plants too :P 12:20:40 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: zuu * r24552 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp misc_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r24537): Unpause do no longer continue scripts 12:26:41 <peter1138> What's that in English? 12:43:30 *** KritiK [~Maxim@128-72-15-2.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:43:41 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c06b:6ab:eab6:e88d] has joined #openttd 12:43:45 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:43:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can't finish CHIPS! It doesn't have OGFX platforms yet :-( 12:44:40 <andythenorth> eh? 12:45:05 <FLHerne> Did I miss those :-) 12:45:33 <andythenorth> what are they? 12:46:02 <FLHerne> Mud platforms still looked incongruous next to many industries when using OGFX, last tim* I rr784e xhecked 12:46:20 <Yexo> FLHerne: that's because chips uses graphics from FIRS 12:46:21 * FLHerne needs to keep the rat off the keyboard while typing :P 12:46:55 <FLHerne> Did FIRS get changed not to use OGFX mud tiles, then? 12:47:08 <andythenorth> no, why would I do that? 12:47:10 <andythenorth> they suck 12:47:23 <andythenorth> or do I misunderstand? 12:47:33 <andythenorth> I never play with OGFX, so I have no idea what the issue is ;) 12:48:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Unless you've changed it, FIRS industries often use the baseset mudtile, but CHIPS platforms only match the TTD mud 12:48:29 <andythenorth> oh right 12:48:33 <andythenorth> I don't know how to fix that 12:48:37 <andythenorth> [shrug] 12:48:42 <andythenorth> use the proper base set 12:48:47 <FLHerne> So mud platforms only match FIRS industries when using the old baseset :P 12:48:54 <andythenorth> probably 12:49:00 <FLHerne> andythenorth: OGFX looks nicer :-) 12:49:07 <Yexo> wouldn't it be possible to use the baseset mud tile in chips too? 12:49:22 <andythenorth> no, it's a reprise of that issue where we can't sanely use ground tiles 12:49:27 <andythenorth> same reason we can't make a grass tile 12:49:37 <andythenorth> platforms have to be overlays, not underlays 12:49:50 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.94.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:49:59 <Yexo> oh, right :( 12:50:02 <andythenorth> unless you can use the 'rail over mud' sprite, but I think that has railtype issues :P 12:50:11 <Yexo> yep 12:50:14 <andythenorth> making a grass tile would be nice :P 12:50:18 <andythenorth> but CHIPS is done ;) 12:50:41 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Draw mud/grass in both common varieties, then add a parameter :P 12:50:50 <andythenorth> no that's stupid 12:50:51 <Yexo> doesn't work for multiplayer 12:51:05 <Yexo> and it'd need another set of graphics for zBase 12:51:10 <Yexo> and another for every new baseset 12:51:19 <andythenorth> and parameters are easily forgotten 12:51:22 <andythenorth> and they can't be changed in game 12:51:35 <andythenorth> and the FIRS tile drawing is horribly complicated 12:51:35 <FLHerne> Yexo: Fix OTTD then :P 12:51:42 <andythenorth> just don't care? 12:51:45 <andythenorth> is easier? 12:51:52 <Yexo> FLHerne: that'd be the proper solution indeed 12:52:00 <andythenorth> it's easy to get the original graphics 12:52:08 <Yexo> but not legal 12:52:18 <Yexo> and not as easy as opengfx 12:57:02 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 13:05:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But the original graphics are ugly :-( 13:08:12 *** Katve [6dcc9c16@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:08:46 *** Katve [6dcc9c16@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 13:19:25 <Elukka> i think we can safely assume the typical user would use opengfx 13:21:14 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-98-217.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 13:21:40 <Elukka> i wouldn't worry too much about FIRS/CHIPS on opengfx though 13:21:42 <Elukka> looks fine to me 13:27:42 <Zuu> Hmm coding for OpenTTD keep distracting me from my scripts. :-p 13:28:16 <Yexo> why do you think I haven't worked on AdmiralAI for a few years? :p 13:41:04 <Zuu> :-) 13:47:40 <peter1138> very easy to get the original graphics. i put the cd in my cdrom drive... i think it's legal. 13:48:04 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590feac7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:48:28 <Zuu> Regarding how to make AIs aware of goals, I'm more and more think towards adding something SCP-like in the API. 13:48:53 <Zuu> If an AI know that there are only 3 cargos that count towards goals, then it could give humans a bigger challenge if the AI focus on those cargos too. 13:50:40 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:51:29 <andythenorth> lo Fremen 13:51:33 <andythenorth> lo frosch123 oops :P 13:51:45 <frosch123> just say quak :) 13:52:00 <frosch123> hiho andy 13:59:16 <Zuu> It could possible be handled a bit more simple than SCP. For most goal-related stuff it is probably easier that GSs are allowed to expose data that AIs can read than requiring GSs and AIs to implement a assynchronus communication protocol. 14:09:51 <Alberth> GSs being allowed to expose data that AIs can read is an asynchronous communication protocol :p 14:11:09 <Alberth> a protocol is just a number of common messages that have meaning :) 14:11:16 <Zuu> Yea, but the SCP-way of doing that was thet GS would scan for incomming requests, parse them and compose a response that is sent back to the AI. The AI in turn need to scan for incomming messages to see when the response is returned. 14:11:46 <Alberth> that sounds quite complicated indeed :p 14:12:24 <Zuu> In easier use cases GSs could possible just put data in a hash table or so that is publicly readable for AIs. 14:13:21 <andythenorth> la la 14:13:29 <Zuu> there would still need to be a mutal agreement on the protocol, but the implementation should be easier for AIs/GSs. 14:13:39 * andythenorth rejected about 20 FIRS tickets 14:13:43 <andythenorth> only 37 left :P 14:14:29 <Alberth> I wonder whether we'd need some common interface both for humans and AIs. The former would be shown in the goal window then 14:14:50 <Alberth> instead of the textual coupling we have now 14:15:42 <Alberth> andythenorth: give the remaining milestone 2.0 :p 14:15:43 <andythenorth> 36 issues left :P 14:15:56 <Zuu> If the intreface towards humans is more strictly controlled by the API than allowing free text goals, then that information could be exposed to AIs. 14:16:11 <Alberth> Zuu: exactly 14:16:33 <Zuu> This approach needs more API updates as GS authors want to do more and more. 14:16:36 <andythenorth> 35 14:16:57 <andythenorth> I should remove the 'prevent closure | allow closure' parameter from FIRS 14:17:05 <andythenorth> and just refuse to allow closure until closure is fixed 14:17:13 <andythenorth> and remove the code that tries to handle closure better 14:18:15 <Alberth> Zuu: yeah, but otherwise you have a ad-hoc interface between GSs and AIs that will never work for random GS with random AI, I think 14:18:44 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24553 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Add: Separate the 'available vehicles' from the other buttons in the vehicle list. 14:18:44 <Alberth> nice, we're spreading dev-talk across two channels :p 14:18:45 <Zuu> On the other hand, I suspect that noone will want to make an AI that handle all specialized goals out there. However, being able to adopt the AI to focus more on certain cargos/connections may be in the scope of what is relativly easy to accomplish for AI authors. 14:21:09 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3319 14:21:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ that is an interesting case for something like "tell OpenTTD that this industry is unhappy" 14:21:43 <andythenorth> I've rejected it because it makes FIRS parameters even more complex 14:23:31 <Alberth> not sure rejection is the right action here, but yeah :) 14:24:06 <andythenorth> no-one is ever going to fix it ;) 14:25:06 <Alberth> I'd move it to version 2 or whatever next major version that you are going to make, with ultra-low priority 14:25:27 <andythenorth> nah 14:25:31 <andythenorth> I want tickets to go away 14:25:39 <andythenorth> it's depressing looking at years of work ahead of me :P 14:25:44 <andythenorth> and no-one else will do them 14:25:47 <andythenorth> 99% certainly 14:25:56 <andythenorth> I kind of need to stop making newgrfs 14:26:09 <Alberth> but it's so addictive :p 14:26:30 <andythenorth> I'd rather play GS 14:37:44 <andythenorth> k 14:37:55 <andythenorth> so the game just needs to build more industries for FIRS ;/ 14:38:18 <andythenorth> it's short by about 30%-100% 14:40:25 <andythenorth> increasing proability of one type (obviously) just screws with availability of other types :P 14:40:28 <Alberth> depends on the map size :) 14:40:37 <Alberth> doesn't build more either 14:42:24 <andythenorth> 'industries high' produces acceptable results 14:42:26 <andythenorth> but only just :P 14:42:36 <andythenorth> maybe I should patch my game and change those constants :P 14:42:54 <andythenorth> maybe those constants just need to be variable, same as water level :P 14:43:46 <FLHerne> Is it possible to add more cargo acceptance to existing housesets by newgrf? 14:44:14 <FLHerne> As in, a third-party grf modifying other ones :P 14:44:25 <andythenorth> not sanely no 14:44:31 <Zuu> Alberth: If the task of deciding a mutal protocol between AIs and GSs are not handled by the API but left for AI/GS authors to handle, then an AI will generally not understand a random GS. 14:44:50 <FLHerne> Aw :-( 14:45:08 * FLHerne would like to add a 'power' cargo, which would be used by everything :P 14:46:03 <andythenorth> add a recieving town industry 14:46:15 <andythenorth> 'substation' 14:46:29 <andythenorth> then write a town growth GS to use it 14:47:04 <andythenorth> 33 FIRS tickets left :( 14:47:09 <andythenorth> this sucks :( 14:47:35 <FLHerne> That sounds like a good idea :-) 14:49:38 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has joined #openttd 14:50:29 * andythenorth wonders whether to delete BANDIT 14:50:40 <andythenorth> I don't see the point of a truck set right now 14:50:46 <andythenorth> opengfx + rvs exists 14:50:56 <andythenorth> for GS, it's enough 14:51:08 <andythenorth> and auto-refit is impossible to provide for trucks 14:51:58 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There's never enough RV variety 14:52:06 <Terkhen> why? OpenGFX+ RV has autorefit for trucks 14:52:18 <FLHerne> And why doesn't auto-refit work for trucks, again? 14:53:34 <andythenorth> because the graphics will change appearance at stations, which is stupid 14:53:59 <andythenorth> and it's impossible to prevent whilst still providing a sane number of trucks in buy menu 14:54:26 <andythenorth> the only solution is lots of spam in the buy menu 'box truck', 'tank truck', 'tipper truck', 'flat truck' etc 14:54:44 <andythenorth> no other vehicle type has this problem 14:54:52 <andythenorth> it's not a limitation in openttd spec 14:54:58 <andythenorth> it's just impossible 14:55:15 <Eddi|zuHause> why is it different than for ships or for wagons? 14:55:21 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Container trucks make sense to change appearance :P 14:55:55 <FLHerne> Also, box trucks all look the same whatever's in them, as do tankers and open hopperbox ones :P 14:56:11 <andythenorth> it's a non issue for ships, most ships look the same 14:56:19 <FLHerne> I don't mind buymenu spam too much, anyway :P 14:56:21 <andythenorth> it's a non-issue for trains because trains are made up of many vehicles 14:56:36 <FLHerne> You can't get worse the eGRVTS, at any rate... :-( 14:56:41 <andythenorth> you can 14:56:48 <andythenorth> I could prove it, easily 14:57:08 <FLHerne> Only by adding a larger variety of vehiclea 14:57:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: just disallow all refits requiring a sprite change from autorefit 14:57:31 <Terkhen> those require a depot 14:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if it works for ships and not for trucks, then you did not abstract away enough properties of trucks 14:57:38 <andythenorth> Terkhen: tried, it's impossible 14:57:38 <FLHerne> eGRVTS has the worst ratio of [interesting variation]:[menu spam] possible 14:58:03 <andythenorth> I already wrote and removed code to try and prevent refits across body types 14:58:07 <andythenorth> it's not possible 14:58:19 <andythenorth> I might just rm the set 14:58:20 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Why not? 14:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: three truck types, bulk, liquid, other 14:58:31 <andythenorth> I'm bored of the idea 14:58:44 <Terkhen> andythenorth: do you mean that the code is impossible? ogfx+rv already groups cargos in different refit groups, it's certainly possible 14:58:45 <andythenorth> how do I delete a devzone project? 14:58:59 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it's impossible to prevent refits that cross boundaries 14:59:00 <FLHerne> That's not 'impossible', that's 'lack of enthusiasm' :P 14:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> allow autorefit between all bulk, between all liquid (and not bulk) and all except (bulk or liquid) 14:59:04 <Terkhen> the design might be complicated, but it should be doable too with just a few truck models 14:59:06 <Terkhen> andythenorth: why? 14:59:20 <andythenorth> because you can break orders with it 14:59:30 <andythenorth> due to cargos that are a union of classes etc 14:59:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the design is really simple, actually 14:59:37 <andythenorth> it's provable 14:59:46 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Assume your users aren't idiots :P 14:59:48 <Terkhen> just take into account those cases 15:00:01 <andythenorth> FLHerne: the users aren't idiots, the game fucks them if I do this 15:00:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can handle unions if you give priority to one 15:00:11 <andythenorth> no 15:00:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. 15:00:19 <andythenorth> it's trivial to create a chain that ends up stuck 15:00:25 <FLHerne> As long as you make sure that A->B and B->A work, it's fine 15:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> no, 15:00:34 <andythenorth> you can do A - > B -> C -> D, then fail at A 15:00:55 <andythenorth> now your game is broken 15:00:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not if you say "bulk trumps liquid trumps all others" 15:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can't do A->B in the first place 15:01:54 <FLHerne> Don't subtypes let you do: [B refitted from/refittable to A] and [B refitted from/refittable to C] separately? 15:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if A is "liquid", and B is "bulk, liquid", then you disallow refit, even though both are liquid 15:02:19 <andythenorth> I think it could be done with a lookup table of all known cargos 15:02:22 <FLHerne> Then you can refit A<->B and B<->C, but not A->B->C? 15:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> because bulk trumps liquid 15:02:37 <Terkhen> or just break specific bugs by checking the cargos causing them directly via cargo label 15:02:39 <Terkhen> bbl 15:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all that is needed is that all unions form proper partitions. 15:03:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: isn't that baffling? 15:03:23 <andythenorth> so my refrigerated truck won't refit fruit because fruit is bulk? 15:03:50 <FLHerne> Then you can have coal<->solid chemicals and oil<->liquid chemicals, say, but not coal<->liquid chemicals :P 15:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> {bulk and union with any other class}, {liquid and union with any other class, except bulk}, {all other unions without bulk or liquid} 15:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, that would be the case 15:04:16 <FLHerne> My idea is better :P 15:04:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: didn't we try htis already and prove that it's broken? I had code for it iirc 15:04:23 <FLHerne> It doesn't have that problem :P 15:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't know your code 15:04:33 <andythenorth> frosch123 ^ can you remember why I couldn't have autorefit for trucks? :P 15:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but there is no flaw in the theory 15:04:48 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:05:01 <FLHerne> Admittedly, my idea might not work. Can someone please tell me why not before I get too obsessive? :D 15:05:16 * FLHerne draws diagram 15:05:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would guess you did not want to code it :p 15:06:32 <andythenorth> nope 15:06:43 <andythenorth> I think it's because autorefit is stupid 15:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if the fruit thing bothers you, you can additionally say "refrigerated trumps bulk and liquid" 15:06:51 <andythenorth> if you try and restrict it 15:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> then you have 4 partitions 15:07:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and fruit will always go in refrigerated, never in bulk 15:07:13 <andythenorth> hmm 15:07:27 <andythenorth> the issue came up with FISH, there were only two cases, tanker and not-tanker 15:07:34 <andythenorth> so what was the issue? 15:07:41 * andythenorth has limited memory 15:08:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: take the logs from 2012-07-28 15:08:12 <andythenorth> goal: allow autorefit of any cargo that doesn't change graphics 15:08:19 <frosch123> there is some talk about autorefit and bandit 15:09:19 <andythenorth> go to A, refit coal. Go to B, refit milk. All is well. 15:10:09 <andythenorth> ach, can't remember the issue :P 15:10:32 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10:52 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:11:24 <FLHerne> Whoops, browser crashed :-( 15:11:47 <FLHerne> Very bad diagram: http://i.imgur.com/Uh5wE.png 15:13:15 <andythenorth> there's a proof in here apparently that autorefit breaks orders http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2012-07-22?page=2 15:13:20 * FLHerne wants to know why it's a stupid idea :P 15:13:22 <andythenorth> around 10:57 15:13:29 <andythenorth> FLHerne: what is it ? 15:14:19 <FLHerne> The stupid diagram? 15:14:38 <FLHerne> My attempt to explain my refitting proposal :P 15:14:55 <FLHerne> Drawn very quickly in a bad image editor 15:15:21 * FLHerne draws a neater version with colours :-) 15:15:47 <Zuu> Even an ascii art table would look better :-) 15:16:05 <andythenorth> oh 15:16:11 <andythenorth> the issue is that autorefit is fucked 15:16:14 <andythenorth> I recall now 15:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the code for my theory is actually quite simple: "switch(hasbit(current_cargp, CC_<something>) + hasbit(new_cargo, CC_<something>)) { 0: chain to next check, 2: return allow refit, default: return disallow refit }" 15:16:24 <andythenorth> it allows the creation of invalid orders with no warning 15:17:27 <andythenorth> ah 15:17:34 <andythenorth> and there's 'load any available cargo' 15:17:43 <andythenorth> which throws a bomb into any set of orders 15:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "load any available" would be quite useful with cargodist 15:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you have a set of mixed trains for your trunk line, and manage the feeders 15:18:39 <andythenorth> so with FISH 2, what did I do? 15:18:41 * andythenorth looks 15:19:07 *** kais58_ [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree mostly it's dangerous if the cargo doesn't know where it's going 15:19:56 <andythenorth> I'm not worried about that 15:20:13 <andythenorth> but when used with the 'allow autorefit' cb, it's very dangerous to orders 15:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> why? 15:20:27 <andythenorth> it can break explicit orders trivially 15:20:53 <andythenorth> and there's no warning or error message to player 15:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what you're getting at 15:21:32 <andythenorth> at A you allow 'load available' 15:21:44 <andythenorth> at B you want an explicit cargo 15:22:04 <andythenorth> newgrf author has tried to provide some handling of autorefit cb 15:22:13 <andythenorth> refit may or may not work at B 15:22:27 <andythenorth> depending on what cargo you loaded at A 15:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the order list cannot check that. because it can be shared between different vehicle types 15:22:55 <andythenorth> your suggestion might well prevent that otoh 15:23:22 <Eddi|zuHause> my suggestion makes sure that autorefits are symmetric, yes 15:23:28 <andythenorth> [not the shared orders issue, but the symmetric] 15:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that was the entire point of the suggestion 15:23:47 <andythenorth> for FISH 2 I solved it differently 15:23:59 <andythenorth> ships can autorefit to any of their refittable cargos 15:24:10 <andythenorth> this is the only valid solution imho 15:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> be symmetric, and disallow changing graphics in the process 15:24:42 <andythenorth> my route is symmetry by blunt force ;) 15:24:58 <andythenorth> and no (significant) graphics change when refitting 15:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you had some unreasonable disgust against having separate vehicles 15:25:10 <andythenorth> it's fine with ships 15:25:30 <andythenorth> tankers / general cargo / mixed ships / ferries 15:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still not sure why it works for 2 ship types, but not for 4 truck types 15:25:56 <andythenorth> let's see 15:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> (refrigerated, bulk, liquid, other) 15:26:16 <andythenorth> I think I should lose a lot of the detailed ideas in BANDIT 15:26:26 <andythenorth> there were going to be lots of body and livery variations 15:26:54 <andythenorth> e.g. different tank colours for different liquid cargos etc 15:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i meant with "you did not abstract away enough properties" 15:27:11 <andythenorth> it's the danger of a pixel generator :P 15:27:22 <andythenorth> previously the sheer effort of drawing would have killed variety stone dead :P 15:27:49 <andythenorth> flat, box, tank, tipper 15:27:52 <andythenorth> 4 types 15:28:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: zuu * r24554 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp ai/ai_gui.hpp hotkeys.cpp): -Add: Hotkeys for widgets in AI Debug window 15:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> why flat and tipper? 15:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> they both carry bulk? 15:28:25 <andythenorth> ask the nerds :P 15:28:36 <andythenorth> they won't like logs and tractors travelling in tippers 15:28:39 <Eddi|zuHause> go with flat, and put tipper in HEQS 15:28:46 <andythenorth> no grain truck? :o 15:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> put all bulk in flat 15:29:17 <andythenorth> coal? 15:29:21 <andythenorth> hmm 15:29:21 <Markk> cola! 15:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (with side barriers) 15:29:25 <andythenorth> you might have a point 15:30:46 <FLHerne> http://imgur.com/qMbYL 15:30:55 * FLHerne made it neater and added colours 15:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> side barriers may easily be replaced with stakes when refitting between wood/steel and bulk 15:31:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1 ish 15:31:13 <andythenorth> FLHerne: but what does it mean? :) 15:31:39 <FLHerne> Allow autorefit along the rows only, don't allow (say) Food -> Paper -> Fruit :-) 15:31:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and for the "nerds", there are still the logging trucks in HEQS 15:32:05 <andythenorth> FLHerne so a big lookup table of cargo labels.... 15:32:07 <FLHerne> Am I correct that subtypes or whatever let you do that? 15:32:10 <andythenorth> no 15:32:21 <FLHerne> Ah well, big table then yes :P 15:32:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I could move the heavy trucks entirely into HEQS 15:32:29 <andythenorth> and make BANDIT more limited 15:32:49 <andythenorth> I'll see 15:32:53 <FLHerne> So make the distinction between Food (fridged) and Food(liquid) 15:33:15 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: too fiddly 15:33:18 <andythenorth> FLHerne: only with a massive massive lookup table that would have to be maintained for every cargo 15:33:29 <FLHerne> But would be shiny :D 15:33:33 <andythenorth> no 15:33:55 <FLHerne> Are you sure it needs a huge table? :P 15:34:01 <andythenorth> yes 15:34:04 * FLHerne looks at stuff 15:34:18 * andythenorth has cast iron certainty on the basis of no considering the issue 15:34:23 <andythenorth> prove me wrong 15:34:27 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.94.91] has joined #openttd 15:34:32 <FLHerne> So what are subtypes for? :P 15:34:33 <andythenorth> be aware that the autorefit cb fails silently 15:34:43 * FLHerne missed the point somewhere probably ;-) 15:34:43 <andythenorth> it gives no feedback, and isn't tested when setting orders 15:34:50 <andythenorth> so it's trivial to set invalid orders 15:35:21 <andythenorth> the autorefit cb also permits evil stuff like 'fail to refit if it's March' 15:35:25 <andythenorth> with no warning to player 15:35:30 <andythenorth> maybe I should include that for April 1 15:35:42 <andythenorth> that will shaft your network once a year :P 15:35:55 * FLHerne does think it should check when setting orders :P 15:37:09 <FLHerne> Perhaps I should try writing a useless vehicle grf to test that kind of thing :-) 15:37:21 <andythenorth> it can't check when setting orders 15:37:37 <FLHerne> It should anyway :P 15:37:38 <andythenorth> the cargo type in the vehicle is non-deterministic 15:37:40 <andythenorth> it can't :P 15:37:52 <andythenorth> it has nothing to check against 15:38:13 <andythenorth> we might be talking at cross purposes about that specific point :P 15:39:04 <FLHerne> As long as A->B is always possible if B->A is, what's the problem? 15:39:25 <FLHerne> If A->B->C works but C->A doesn't, that's silly :P 15:41:04 <andythenorth> it's fine if you have a massive lookup table 15:41:12 <andythenorth> and never use classes or such 15:41:29 <Terkhen> that's why I suggested labels :P 15:41:36 <Terkhen> it defeats the point of cargo classes, though 15:41:41 <andythenorth> yup 15:42:09 <andythenorth> if I solve this for BANDIT, I'll do it similar to FISH, and similar to Eddi's suggestions 15:42:28 <andythenorth> allow any refittable cargo 15:42:36 <Terkhen> but given that new cargos are introduced so slowly, IMO just using a label based scheme is a good solution 15:43:18 <Terkhen> at least for stuff like OpenGFX+ NewGRFs, which you can expect to be supported and updated quickly :P 15:44:03 <andythenorth> ho 15:44:06 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 15:44:21 <andythenorth> for Europe, all general cargo trucks could be tilt :P 15:44:57 <andythenorth> tilt trailers basically allow carriage of most non-liquid, non-pourable cargos http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/len_rogers/aug2002/batch2/daf_cds.jpg 15:45:01 <andythenorth> but not used in US 15:45:07 <Zuu> hehe, sholud OpenTTD get length restrictions for RVs that vary over the map? :-p 15:45:18 <andythenorth> perhaps :) 15:45:27 <Zuu> And did someone create the track set with different voltages? 15:45:48 <frosch123> we sould add load time penalties if the rv is longer than the stop :p 15:46:33 <andythenorth> Zuu: roadtypes :P 15:46:46 * FLHerne demands roadtypes 15:46:55 <Zuu> Oh, and maybe different weight restrictions too? I guess Europe standard is 40 tonnes? Or is it just the length that is shorter in most of Europe than in the north? 15:46:55 <andythenorth> that definitely works 15:47:05 <andythenorth> Europe varies a bit on weight 15:47:09 <andythenorth> or weight per axle 15:47:09 <FLHerne> Steam trams look more ridiculous every time I look at them :-( 15:47:11 <Rubidium> frosch123: and what if you have a two 7.5 tile vehicles and a 8 tile road stop? 15:47:30 <Rubidium> will the latter occur the penalty for the road stop being 7 tiles too short? 15:47:36 <Rubidium> or will it wait? 15:48:46 <Zuu> If it is smart, it will check how long time the vehicle in front will take to load. (which may be unknown), if it appears to be a quick load, it will wait. If it appears to talke long time, it could start loading. :-) 15:48:48 <frosch123> hmm :p 15:49:11 <frosch123> it just looked weird sending heqs 5 tile trams to a 1 tile roadstop :p 15:49:34 <Rubidium> those trams with instaload? 15:49:36 <Zuu> But I guess in most cases the loading penalty would be quite high if you only have a 0.5 coverage of the RV, and then waiting will be better. 15:49:43 <andythenorth> an alternative suggestion for autorefit: forbid it 15:50:15 <Zuu> And in the scope of penalties, perhaps only allow loading too long vehicles when they reach the front of a stop? 15:50:16 <andythenorth> or another suggestion: it's ok for vehicles to entirely change appearance at a station 15:50:32 <Zuu> s/scope/spirit/ 15:50:36 <Rubidium> only if you refit from "tourist" to "hooligan" 15:50:37 <andythenorth> hmm 15:50:40 <FLHerne> andythenorth; Neither of those is good :-( 15:51:04 <Rubidium> but then the cargo refits the train ;) 15:51:15 <andythenorth> ho ho 15:52:41 <andythenorth> there's no cb for refittable cargos, right? 15:52:48 <andythenorth> it's action 0 prop only? 15:52:59 <andythenorth> I don't mean the auto-refit cb 15:53:36 <andythenorth> ach, maybe that achieves same thing 15:53:55 <andythenorth> for a train I think auto-refit would be solvable with the user bits 15:54:21 <andythenorth> set a user bit or so for body type, determined when vehicle is refitted in depot 15:54:35 <andythenorth> then check that bit, and the cargo being refitted to for autorefit 15:54:58 <andythenorth> all sounds a bit complicated tbh :P 15:57:53 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 16:00:54 <andythenorth> hmm 16:01:09 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:01:32 <andythenorth> box truck -> express / covered cargos (mail, paper, food etc), usually small, fast 16:02:12 <andythenorth> general truck (dropsides which can be removed for a flatbed, covered with a tarp, or stakes added for logs etc) -> any cargo except a few exclusions 16:02:27 <andythenorth> tank truck -> liquids 16:03:05 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 16:03:46 <andythenorth> fridge truck is overkill 16:04:04 <andythenorth> maybe I add dump truck...but why bother if HEQS exists? 16:05:11 <andythenorth> redesigning HEQS 2 will be fun 16:05:17 <andythenorth> all the tractors etc will have to go 16:05:23 <andythenorth> as they refit anything, but change graphics 16:05:29 <andythenorth> and the trams 16:05:47 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:05:52 <andythenorth> maybe I just rm the trams 16:06:20 <Terkhen> andythenorth: in which way is setting a bit different than defining refit groups with specific conditions for switching from one to another? 16:06:20 <Zuu> But couldn't changing eg. only trailer graphics be allowed? 16:06:55 <Zuu> That would mean that the truck drops its trailer at the station and picks up a new one. 16:07:13 <andythenorth> Terkhen: player would set the bit by choosing the initial subtype refit, but you might be right 16:07:28 <andythenorth> I tried limiting by current subtype in FISH 16:07:40 <andythenorth> can't remember what I did wrong 16:08:45 <andythenorth> trams only have 3 body types 16:09:04 <Terkhen> if "current cargo in group X, only allow autorefit to cargos in group X" 16:09:23 <Terkhen> "if current cargo is in group Y, allow autorefit for free to cargos in group Y, and for a fee to group Z" 16:09:27 <Terkhen> and so on 16:11:10 <andythenorth> maybe 16:12:29 <andythenorth> it's pretty hard to avoid crossing groups 16:12:48 <andythenorth> due to cargos that go in both groups 16:12:55 <andythenorth> e.g. load milk 16:12:59 <andythenorth> milk is in two groups 16:13:02 <andythenorth> box and tank 16:13:47 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-70.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:13:57 <Terkhen> use different vehicles for tank 16:14:13 <andythenorth> ah 16:14:17 <andythenorth> then we're back to the only solution 16:14:27 <andythenorth> spam the buy menu with near-identical vehicles 16:14:31 <andythenorth> I think it's the only viable route 16:14:43 <Terkhen> only 2 or 3 for each model probably :P 16:14:51 <andythenorth> there are 11 trams currently, adding another 14 is ok 16:15:08 <Terkhen> you can also enforce a single group for cargos 16:15:16 <andythenorth> (only 7 have cargo specific body types, and there are only 3 body types) 16:15:24 <Terkhen> if you are allowing a truck to refit to anything, why use a piece goods container to carry milk? 16:15:33 <Terkhen> a tanker is better 16:16:04 <andythenorth> that reintroduces the changing graphics at stations issue...? 16:17:51 <Terkhen> why? milk would only be in the tanker group 16:17:58 <Terkhen> to switch from a tanker to piece goods, go to a depot 16:18:11 <Terkhen> you could also use subtypes too for determining cargo groups 16:18:21 <andythenorth> you have no way of knowing current body type 16:18:30 <andythenorth> I can't remember why subtypes doesn't work, but there's some flaw in it 16:18:52 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you have a single group for all cargo, the current cargo determines the group 16:19:17 <Zuu> If you have subtypes of the same cargo, the AI only sees one of them. 16:19:18 <Terkhen> milk belongs only to the tanker group -> if you are carrying milk the current group is tanker 16:19:36 <Zuu> But I don't see how that would limit setting up autorefit boundaries. 16:20:45 <FLHerne> Terkhen: I was suggesting that :P 16:21:13 <FLHerne> Not the recent bit, but with subtypes :P 16:21:15 <andythenorth> Terkhen: so fail the refit to milk if current group is not tanker? 16:24:26 <Terkhen> if chosen cargo is not in the same group than current cargo -> refit only allowed at depot 16:24:42 <andythenorth> you can still setup orders for it though 16:24:50 <andythenorth> which is painfully unintuitive to end user 16:25:07 <Terkhen> FLHerne: yes, this is how OpenGFX+ sets do it... although the issue is simpler because there are a lot of models of trucks/wagons 16:25:26 <andythenorth> I have a save running here with a ship that can't follow its orders 16:25:43 <andythenorth> and its not as simple as 'try test running the cb' 16:25:50 <andythenorth> because 'current cargo' is non-deterministic 16:26:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: That shouldn't matter, if refits are sane :P 16:26:23 <andythenorth> no no 16:26:56 <andythenorth> by sane, you mean 'this vehicle is a tanker, therefore only refits to liquid cargos' etc. 16:26:58 <andythenorth> ? 16:27:00 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you mean that OpenTTD allows you to choose any refittable cargo for orders disregarding callbacks (which as you mention is probably impossible anyways because it can't know the current cargo) I don't think that there is a way to solve that problem NewGRF wise 16:27:09 <FLHerne> If you can autorefit, however indirectly, to something you should be able to autorefit directly back :P 16:27:09 <andythenorth> no 16:27:10 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-105-195.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:27:13 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 16:27:22 * Terkhen does not know how OpenTTD handles autorefit orders 16:27:54 <FLHerne> If it doesn't need a graphics change to get to whatever cargo, it shouldn't look silly changing back either 16:28:23 <andythenorth> that rules out autorefit for current HEQS trams 16:28:31 <andythenorth> or the introduction of 300% more trams ;) 16:29:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: 3 links 16:29:13 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3139/Lindton%20Transport,%2015-06-2012.sav 16:29:16 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3140/fish.grf 16:29:19 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3141/firs.zip 16:29:28 <andythenorth> that was one solution I tried with subtypes 16:29:33 <andythenorth> it fails horribly :) 16:29:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What causes it to fail? 16:30:04 <andythenorth> try it 16:30:07 <andythenorth> have a look at ship 1 16:30:18 <andythenorth> send it to depot and look at the refits it can have 16:30:44 <andythenorth> and look at the orders, then watch it silently fail to refit 16:32:05 <Terkhen> andythenorth: then the problem is that OpenTTD lets you choose any cargo, right? 16:32:11 <andythenorth> yes 16:32:17 <andythenorth> and OpenTTD *can't* fix that 16:32:28 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-20-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:32:30 <andythenorth> even if newgrf authors use very rigid sets of cargos 16:32:43 <andythenorth> OpenTTD can't account for conditional orders or 'load available' 16:32:49 <andythenorth> or changes in the orders 16:32:55 <andythenorth> or shared orders 16:33:22 <andythenorth> so the only solution (imo) is that autorefit should be allowed for *all* refittable cargos 16:33:37 <andythenorth> and that different vehicles should exist for different body types 16:33:41 <andythenorth> as per train wagons 16:33:44 <Terkhen> what's the point of the autorefit callbacks then? 16:33:57 <Terkhen> this sounds like a problem in OpenTTD to me 16:34:11 <andythenorth> to allow for complex cases like 'can refit water -> milk, but not petrol -> milk' 16:34:21 <andythenorth> and primarily for setting refit costs afaik 16:34:40 <andythenorth> the first case would have the same problem of invalid orders 16:34:45 <Terkhen> but as soon as you disallow some refits, those cases are inherently broken because OpenTTD allows autorefit orders to anything 16:34:49 <andythenorth> yes 16:34:58 <andythenorth> disallowing a refit to a refittable cargo type is nonsense 16:35:02 <andythenorth> it's a genuine misfeature :) 16:35:07 <andythenorth> we found one! 16:35:11 <FLHerne> andythenorth: There isn't a problem with the current autorefit system :P 16:35:15 <Terkhen> therefore there is either a problem in OpenTTD or a problem with the specs, because they let you disallow certain refits 16:35:22 <andythenorth> FLHerne: yes there is, you are wrong 16:35:28 <andythenorth> Terkhen: yes 16:35:38 <andythenorth> Terkhen: previous discussion with pm on this: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2012-07-22?page=2 16:35:59 <Terkhen> tl;dr? :P 16:36:04 <andythenorth> yarp 16:36:05 <andythenorth> nvm 16:36:06 <andythenorth> :) 16:36:20 <andythenorth> there is a problem with the specs 16:36:21 * FLHerne downloads nightly to test the svaegame with 16:36:23 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IMO it is a problem with the specs 16:36:30 <andythenorth> I can literally make a grf that disallows refit on tuesdays 16:36:34 <Terkhen> since the problem is unsolvable in OpenTTD 16:36:42 <Terkhen> the specs should not let you create NewGRFs which cause this problem 16:36:46 <andythenorth> no 16:37:03 <andythenorth> even without disallowing, there is still a problem with shared orders 16:37:09 <andythenorth> but that exists for refit in depot too I think 16:37:34 <andythenorth> the specs also allow you to refit vehicles to a different length 16:37:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: In what cases do refits fail? 16:37:40 <andythenorth> ship 1 16:37:43 <FLHerne> *autorefits 16:37:54 <FLHerne> One moment, testing 16:38:41 <FLHerne> Ark, needs weird grfs too :-( 16:38:45 <andythenorth> linked above 16:38:54 <FLHerne> Just saw :-) 16:39:00 <andythenorth> refitting to different lengths is totally verboten by openttd, but spec allows it :) 16:39:58 <andythenorth> (at stations) 16:41:26 <FLHerne> I'm not seeing the problem 16:41:35 <FLHerne> It carries oil back and forth :P 16:41:38 <andythenorth> ship 1, order 2, refit to bauxite 16:41:57 <FLHerne> But it doesn't because there's no bauxite :P 16:42:08 <andythenorth> no it doesn't because the spec is broken 16:42:17 * Zuu thinks that it would make sense to have different engines for cases when autorefit is not allowed among all refit cargoes and then just allow autorefit between all corgoes that an engine can refit between? 16:42:21 <andythenorth> ah 16:42:31 <andythenorth> FLHerne: your persistence may have a point 16:42:34 <FLHerne> No, it doesn't because it doesn't need to, because there isn't any :P 16:42:48 <FLHerne> I still don't see your point 16:42:52 <andythenorth> we found a problem in an MP game recently, where autorefit is broken in a different way 16:43:03 <FLHerne> As long as refitting is sane, you can't break it 16:43:13 <andythenorth> autorefit won't trigger if there's no cargo waiting - is that your experience of it? 16:43:21 <andythenorth> because I think that might be a significant current bug 16:44:01 <FLHerne> The only places where the specific cargo refitted to matters, is if you can refit to a cargo from some cargos but not others 16:44:07 <Zuu> If you make it so that the available auto refits of a _vehicle_ depend on its current cargo, then how do you expose that information at _engine_ level? 16:44:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: How is it a bug? 16:44:28 <Terkhen> bbl 16:44:29 <andythenorth> we had an MP game where it appeared autorefit wasn't working, but I'm not sure of the exact cause 16:44:41 <Zuu> I mean, when a human/AI buys a vehicle, it looks at the engine list and make a decision based on that. 16:44:52 <FLHerne> I don't want my boat to (perhaps expensively) refit to a cargo which isn't there :P 16:44:53 <andythenorth> Zuu: you can't easily :P 16:45:02 <andythenorth> FLHerne: tough, the orders say refit 16:45:05 <andythenorth> it's broken 16:45:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, they say auto-refit 16:45:45 <andythenorth> point 16:45:47 <FLHerne> As in: automatically refit if needed :-) 16:46:00 <andythenorth> wtf is that good though? :o 16:46:03 <Zuu> So why not just allow auto-refit among all cargos that an engine can carry? And for cases when the graphics would change to much, offer two different engines? 16:46:12 <andythenorth> Zuu: +lots 16:46:18 <FLHerne> 'Auto-refit to available cargo' would make no sense in your definition :p 16:46:18 <andythenorth> that is the correct solution 16:46:29 <andythenorth> hmm 16:46:31 <andythenorth> I think it's fucked tbh 16:46:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, it's other stuff that's broken :P 16:47:01 <andythenorth> which stuff? 16:47:14 <FLHerne> Dunno :P 16:47:17 <andythenorth> yeah no 16:47:24 <andythenorth> use the money cheat 16:47:25 <andythenorth> try building a bauxite mine in the catchment for Lindton Lakeside 16:47:28 <FLHerne> What's the problem with that subtype idea? 16:47:32 <FLHerne> I will 16:47:37 <andythenorth> watch it entirely fail to refit 16:47:54 <andythenorth> because it's not allowed to refit across the subtype 16:48:00 <andythenorth> by my code 16:48:07 <andythenorth> yet the order can still be set 16:48:16 <andythenorth> and OpenTTD has *no* way to fix that 16:48:53 <andythenorth> disallowing refit should be banned 16:49:13 <andythenorth> bizarrely the industry is supplying cargo to the dock 16:49:17 <andythenorth> which is utterly baffling 16:49:51 <andythenorth> because no vehicle refitted to bauxite has visited it 16:49:57 <andythenorth> so why supply bauxite? 16:50:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not seeing your problem :P 16:50:18 <FLHerne> The latter one, yes 16:50:36 <andythenorth> your ship refits to bauxite? 16:50:43 <FLHerne> No 16:50:44 <andythenorth> for order 2? 16:50:54 <andythenorth> and that's not a problem because? 16:50:58 <FLHerne> But the user should know that you can't tank bauxite :P 16:51:05 <andythenorth> why? 16:51:09 <FLHerne> Users =/= idiots :P 16:51:18 <andythenorth> bollocks :P 16:51:20 <FLHerne> You can't put bauxite in a tank :P 16:51:32 <FLHerne> You can't put oil in a cargo hold 16:51:41 <Zuu> FLHerne: Tell that to the AI too 16:51:44 <FLHerne> The user should be able to figure that out 16:52:10 <andythenorth> no 16:52:15 <andythenorth> they'll raise bugs 16:52:24 <andythenorth> it's stupid UX 16:52:35 <FLHerne> Zuu: Fair enough. Perhaps the AI should be able to see subtypes? 16:52:41 <andythenorth> it's like building a bug right into the game deliberately, then having to handle it for life 16:52:54 * FLHerne doesn't know much about what AIs know :P 16:53:03 <Zuu> http://noai.openttd.org/api/ 16:53:05 <andythenorth> the AI has no idea what subtypes mean 16:53:15 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If they file bug reports, tell them to read the donotreadme :P 16:53:33 <FLHerne> AI might be a pain 16:53:36 <Zuu> Eg. an AI cannot use the longer tram variants of the same tram. 16:53:55 <Zuu> Unless NewGRFs provide them as separate engines. 16:54:11 <FLHerne> Can AIs be hardcoded for specific sets, if known? 16:54:24 <FLHerne> And yes, that would be very ugly :P 16:54:28 <Zuu> an AI cannot ask OpenTTD which NewGRFs that are loaded. 16:55:13 <Zuu> Engine API: http://noai.openttd.org/api/1.2.2/classAIEngine.html 16:55:24 <Zuu> Vehicle API: http://noai.openttd.org/api/1.2.2/classAIVehicle.html 16:56:33 <FLHerne> In that case, surely inability to deal with subtypes is an AI bug/nonfeature? 16:57:06 <Zuu> are subtypes known at engine scope or only for vehicles? 16:57:47 <andythenorth> hmm 16:58:15 <andythenorth> forcing autorefit to be allowed is not simple :( 16:58:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You could just have that massive lookup table :P 16:58:54 <andythenorth> you don't get it :P 17:00:23 <FLHerne> Probably not :P 17:00:27 <Zuu> FLHerne: Indeed, it is a missing feature of the API that AIs can't deal with subtypes. However, I don't know the NewGRF specs good enough to know how subtypes are implemented. Eg. if there are enough clues there (preferable at engine level) to at beforehand know the effect of refiting to each subtype. 17:00:32 * FLHerne is bad at getting it :-( 17:01:00 <andythenorth> autorefit is currently broken in nightlies anyway I think 17:01:04 <Zuu> Eg. if there is enough data provided by the NewGRFs that AIs can make a decision on which subtype to pick that makes sense. 17:01:37 <andythenorth> it's just a number 17:01:44 <andythenorth> subtype = 0, 1, 2 etc 17:01:54 <andythenorth> outside of the grf, you have no idea what they're supposed to mean 17:02:12 <Zuu> If that is the case, I'm not surprised why it has not been added to the API yet. 17:02:25 <andythenorth> subtypes are another genuinely stupid feature 17:02:44 <andythenorth> there is nothing good about them 17:04:14 *** kais58 [~kais58@cpc2-cwma8-2-0-cust293.7-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:04:17 <Zuu> I never understood the value of them from a human perspective and as an AI author they only impose restrictions on the available engine sorts. 17:05:23 <andythenorth> they're a crappy way to provide alternative liveries 17:05:27 <Zuu> The only case I can see that it makes any sense if you hit the upper limit of engine types. 17:05:31 <andythenorth> and a crappy way to provide variable length RVs 17:05:48 <andythenorth> they were intended to provide a specific purpose - creating more bug reports 17:06:06 <andythenorth> by adding 'Goods (cars)' or 'Goods (electronics)' 17:06:14 <andythenorth> in vehicles 17:06:28 <andythenorth> and also at industries 17:06:48 <andythenorth> which causes the following bug report: "industry produces Goods (cars), but my vehicles only carry Goods 17:06:58 <andythenorth> ...which sets have Goods (cars)?" 17:07:06 <andythenorth> which is nonsense :P 17:07:20 <Zuu> So remove it from NewGRF v9? :-p 17:07:30 <andythenorth> too many people will wail :( 17:07:54 <andythenorth> and nobody wants to solve the issues that newgrf authors abuse subtypes for 17:08:24 * andythenorth is +1 to removing it 17:09:29 <Zuu> or enforce that all subtypes have the same length + capacity+ weight+ hp + tractive effort + running cost etc. 17:09:32 <V453000> dont tell me there will be another change in cargo classes and stuff :D 17:10:07 <andythenorth> ok 17:10:21 <andythenorth> I won't tell you :P 17:11:00 <Zuu> I'm sure most AI authors will be okay with not knowing which colour the different subtypes have. Although we have got feature requests from AI authors that want to set the face/gender of the president. 17:11:38 <V453000> :P 17:12:45 <andythenorth> when subtypes are used for vehicle capacity, that's insane 17:12:50 <Zuu> Or as, also that will give protests, make it mandatory to at engine level define all subtypes with their charesterstics. If thats done, that data could be exposed to AIs. 17:13:34 <andythenorth> yes 17:13:42 <V453000> subtypes for capacity? :o who does that 17:13:46 <V453000> or which set :) 17:13:47 <Zuu> However, that will need AIs to not only pick which engine to buy, but at the same time also pick which subtype to refit too and pass around a table with this data instead of just an engine id. 17:14:51 <Zuu> HEQS trams :-) 17:17:25 <V453000> :d 17:17:29 <V453000> ah the lenght 17:17:35 <andythenorth> property for consist length, with a new GUI :P 17:18:02 <andythenorth> property for livery, same 17:18:04 <Zuu> or add RV wagons :-) 17:18:30 <Zuu> andythenorth: those two + removal of subtypes :-) 17:18:32 <andythenorth> make changing length a depot-only thing 17:18:42 <andythenorth> not a normal orders refit 17:19:19 <Zuu> Yea, changing length in a station with a RV behind may cause problems :-p 17:19:40 <andythenorth> it does 17:19:57 <andythenorth> I think it might be guarded for better, I am seeing odd refits in my test of BANDIT :P 17:20:05 <andythenorth> it used to throw a big red error :P 17:21:40 <Zuu> is there a set of liveries per length or should the API enforce that all combinations of length and liveries should be provided? 17:24:57 <andythenorth> dunno, depends on whims of newgrf author :P 17:26:06 <andythenorth> changing vehicle lengths on a per-cargo basis is a bit insane :P 17:26:18 <andythenorth> in fact lots of cb36 is insane :) 17:26:23 <andythenorth> the sky is falling! 17:26:26 <andythenorth> quick, rm the newgrf spec! 17:29:07 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:29:51 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 17:32:40 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.94.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:36:11 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 17:42:43 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has joined #openttd 17:42:49 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-89-176-31-70.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:44:40 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:48:12 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:50:33 *** LordAro [5194f220@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 17:50:46 <LordAro> hai ladies 17:52:10 <Alberth> a lord should address ladies with more respect imho :) 17:52:14 <Alberth> hi :) 17:52:29 <LordAro> :P 17:52:31 <LordAro> howdy 17:52:38 <LordAro> ^ that better? ;) 17:53:10 <Alberth> as lord, not really; as LordAro, much better :D 17:53:20 <LordAro> :D 17:54:11 <LordAro> i suspect you foreign lot may not be able to watch it, but: http://www.bbc.co.uk/i/b01hlkcq/ 17:55:35 <Alberth> looks like a nice program :) 17:55:36 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:48cd:f7e:60c2:4f56] has joined #openttd 17:56:14 <LordAro> indeed :) i've written about it on my personal statement (uni thing) 17:56:54 <LordAro> also depends on how good your english is, i guess 17:57:17 <LordAro> but in my experience, half you you can speak English better than most English people :L 17:57:35 <LordAro> s/speak/understand\/write/ 17:58:45 <LordAro> but then, there are also subtitles, so i guess it's ok :L 17:58:55 * LordAro is rambling... 17:59:14 <Alberth> somewhat indeed :) 17:59:28 * LordAro will stop 17:59:33 <LordAro> ... for now 17:59:35 <LordAro> :P 18:07:14 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B605.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:11:52 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:48cd:f7e:60c2:4f56] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:12:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:19:47 * andythenorth ponders rebuild of BANDIT 18:20:11 <FLHerne> andythenorth: New plan? 18:20:28 <FLHerne> rebuild > rm, hopefully :-) 18:20:54 <andythenorth> it's a lot of work to rebuild 18:21:17 <andythenorth> it was created on the basis of 'all trucks carry all cargos' 18:23:35 <Zuu> LordAro: That BBC program does not only depend on your English knowledge, but how good you are to fool BBC to serve you the content even if you are not in the UK. 18:24:25 <andythenorth> hmm 18:24:32 <andythenorth> rv-wagons? :( 18:25:30 <FLHerne> Would be neat, especially for trams :-) 18:26:05 <FLHerne> Put them on the list, after roadtypes and diagonal roads :P 18:26:05 <andythenorth> I actually like the length refits 18:26:21 <Zuu> LordAro: Oh there is also a BSL version of that documentary :-) 18:26:21 * FLHerne doesn't, to be honest 18:26:50 <andythenorth> better than clicking a lot to add wagons 18:27:45 <FLHerne> Especially with FIRS, you end up with not far off 100 refit options, which is silly :-( 18:28:10 <andythenorth> yes 18:28:15 <andythenorth> agreed 18:28:26 <FLHerne> andythenorth: If they're like rail ones, you could make an articulated wagon with multiple subwagons :P 18:28:51 <Zuu> If length and livery is split into separate options then the only remaning type would be cargo. 18:29:07 <andythenorth> and random crap authors think up :P 18:29:26 <Zuu> Having three independend selectors for cargo, length and livery would give an easier to handle GUI (and AI API) 18:30:05 <FLHerne> It would need an [other] section, too :P 18:30:45 <andythenorth> livery should be a var that can't be checked during cb36 :P 18:31:48 <andythenorth> length would be better done with rv-wagons? 18:32:20 <andythenorth> ah 18:32:30 * andythenorth thought 18:33:53 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 18:34:04 <andythenorth> this stuff with RVs changing consist props on cargo refit, that's like 'shunting' for trains 18:34:11 <andythenorth> and not in a good way :P 18:36:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24555 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed) 18:36:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:36:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_ 18:36:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker 18:36:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 14 changes by lorenzodv 18:36:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by telk5093 18:36:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 16 changes by tonny 18:38:17 <andythenorth> hmm 18:38:37 <andythenorth> how about an extra step after building a vehicle - set various arbitrary properties for the vehicle 18:38:42 <andythenorth> livery, body type, length etc 18:38:49 <LordAro> Zuu: oh indeed, but have no such need for proxy-ness nor sign language ;) 18:40:35 <Zuu> My BSL knowledge is very limited. 18:41:12 <Zuu> All I know is that you have wierd alphabet :-p 18:41:29 <Zuu> weird* 18:41:54 * LordAro 's knowledge is non-existent, other than it involves hand-waving 18:41:55 <LordAro> :L 18:42:18 <andythenorth> arbitrary vehicle properties could be reset in depot 18:42:25 <andythenorth> but they would invalidate all vehicle orders 18:43:09 <Zuu> LordAro: BSL use a two hand alphabet where most other (sign) languages use a one hand alphabet. 18:44:08 *** keoz [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 18:45:20 <LordAro> because British are more awesome? :) 18:46:16 <Zuu> Is that because you you also drive on the wrong side of the road? ;-) 18:46:39 <LordAro> *correct 18:46:43 <LordAro> ;) 18:46:46 <Zuu> hehe 18:47:00 <LordAro> everyone else is wrong 18:47:30 <Alberth> they obviously always do something else than everybody else, but signing with 0 hands is so difficult :p 18:48:02 <Zuu> Although here trains above Malmö go on the left but just north of Malmö there is a level separated intersection for changing to right hand side rail traffic through Malmö and down to Copenhagen. :-) 18:49:50 <Zuu> But I guess, someone didn't like the suggestion to build a bridge to Denmark that includes a change between right and side and left hand side train traffic on the bridge. :-p 18:50:34 <Alberth> sounds a bit complicated, building a bridge on a bridge :) 18:50:37 <Rubidium> they could've done that in the tunnel 18:52:00 <Rubidium> or on the island 18:54:35 <Rubidium> or just add an extra cross-over before Köbenhavns Lufthavn Kastrup (from Malmö) 18:54:55 <Zuu> So now a generation of Malmö citicens will grow up and believe that trains drive on right in Sweden :-D 19:03:38 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 19:04:18 *** bolli [~Sam@87.115.31.155] has joined #openttd 19:10:17 *** Muxy [~Muxy@main.goulp.net] has quit [Quit: PACKET_CLIENT_QUIT] 19:11:34 <andythenorth> build vehicle -> set props 19:11:50 <andythenorth> they appear to varaction 2 like static props, there are no cbs to modify them 19:12:31 <andythenorth> changing them would require something like rebuild 19:12:50 <andythenorth> invalidate orders (because refittable cargos might have changed) 19:13:23 <andythenorth> Zuu: what would be needed for this to work with AI? ^ 19:13:47 <andythenorth> hmm 19:14:17 <andythenorth> if this could be run *before* the vehicle is constructed, then articulated vehicles could be built to different lengths 19:14:28 <andythenorth> or with different IDs for trailing vehicles etc 19:15:12 <andythenorth> cb16 could branch on the value of a static prop 19:16:57 <andythenorth> the options for these props would be specified by newgrf in an action-14 like way 19:17:05 <andythenorth> could be used for any amount of madness :) 19:17:18 <andythenorth> power, gear ratio, length, trailers, livery, etc 19:17:41 <bolli> Is there anybody in here who knows about Joan and packets? :p 19:18:23 <Terkhen> dihedral^ 19:18:46 <bolli> I've tried to message him, but i keep getting auto-reply messages.... 19:19:03 <Terkhen> I guess that you will have to be patient :) 19:19:55 <bolli> yeah... 19:20:05 <Alberth> send him a PM 19:22:24 <bolli> mkay 19:25:47 <NGC3982> Evening, democrats and demons. 19:27:54 <andythenorth> hmm 19:28:00 <andythenorth> nobody objects to my idea above 19:28:06 <andythenorth> must be good, right? 19:28:08 <andythenorth> :P 19:29:40 <NGC3982> Does the normal process of creating engine graphics in NewGRF allow special graphics to be used while the engine visits a station? 19:33:01 <NGC3982> If one for instance wanted to lower power connections during stops 19:34:01 <Rubidium> I guess you could do that with vehicle animation 19:34:30 <Rubidium> though... it doesn't sound very realistic, unless you want to change direction... but you won't know it's going to do that 19:36:12 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 19:36:36 <NGC3982> True. 19:36:48 <Zuu> andythenorth: I'm clueless when it comes to varaction 2 etc. but as long as your suggestion involvs that details about the resulting vehicle is known from probing the engine, I'll be happy :-) 19:36:48 <NGC3982> Well, I was thinking of that, and open doors during station visits. 19:37:40 <NGC3982> JtptJust as a thought. 19:38:00 <NGC3982> Oops. 19:38:27 <Zuu> andythenorth: And if your fellow NewGRF authors think AIs are boring, tell them that the same problem applies to anyone wanting to create an awsome GS that interacts with the available engines. 19:38:57 <NGC3982> XT9 and 3g does not enjoy each others company. 19:41:07 <andythenorth> Zuu: if I've understood my own idea correctly, the vehicle properties are more reliable once more built this way 19:41:14 <andythenorth> but still the AI wouldn't know how to build them :P 19:45:20 <andythenorth> Zuu: doesn't the existence of cb36 completely screw the AI? :o 19:45:46 <Zuu> An AI need to know when it picks between different engines the capability of each engine so that it can make a clever selection there. If it want to make use of auto-refit it needs to know that the engine it picks can auto refit between the cargos it needs it to be able to auto-refit between. If this cannot been established, the second best is if it can probe a built vehicle for the data it needs. In this case it need to build an engine, experime 19:45:46 <Zuu> nt with it and then it can store the gained knowledge and sell the vehicle. 19:46:01 <Zuu> andythenorth: What is cb36? 19:46:28 <andythenorth> change vehicle properties 19:46:33 <andythenorth> according to arbitrary conditions 19:46:48 <Yexo> it's one of the big problems for AIs 19:50:30 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590feac7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:50:47 <Zuu> Even without trying to write code that can detect all insanety that NewGRF authors can do, it is quite complicated to write an AI that "only" take care of all odd behoviour in plain OpenTTD with all its settings. 19:51:40 <Zuu> I just counted CluelessPlus and was surprised that it is only 6500 lines of code. But then SuperLib with about 8000 lines of code is hevily used by CluelessPlus. 19:51:56 <andythenorth> openttd 2! 19:52:06 <andythenorth> strip it back 19:52:15 <andythenorth> focus on features that support GS style play :P 19:52:59 <andythenorth> remove lots of advanced settings 19:53:03 <andythenorth> figure out API between AI, GS, newgrf and core game 19:53:22 <andythenorth> and deprecate stupid parts of newgrf with grf v9 19:55:30 <andythenorth> never going to happen right? 19:55:45 <andythenorth> "all features must be preserved, forever, no matter how squirrelly everything gets" 19:55:48 <andythenorth> :P 19:57:55 <LordAro> hmm. can i has voice on #openttd.dev ? 19:59:13 <Yexo> LordAro: identify to nickserv and rejoin the channel 19:59:24 <Yexo> you're already in the access list 20:00:10 <LordAro> i already was... 20:00:21 <LordAro> hmm. i blame this stupide online client 20:00:49 <andythenorth> Zuu: I find it mentally taxing trying to design good gameplay in a spec created by train nerds to make bigger trainsets :) 20:02:27 <Zuu> :-) 20:02:33 *** keoz [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 20:03:04 <Alberth> andythenorth: disable it when you cannot play with opengfx+ :) 20:03:49 <andythenorth> but also....we have a situation where we expect every part of the addon frameworks to work nicely with everything else, and all the advanced settings :P 20:04:32 <andythenorth> whilst not insisting on co-operation between authors 20:04:32 <andythenorth> it's a great bazaar :) 20:04:32 <andythenorth> less good as a cathedral ;) 20:05:09 * andythenorth -> pub ;) 20:05:16 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:06:20 *** chester_ [~chester@89-178-175-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 20:14:06 *** bolli [~Sam@87.115.31.155] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:17:17 <Zuu> LordAro: Have you worked anything on your AI since 1.2? 20:17:37 <LordAro> tiny bits, but nothing significant 20:17:43 <Zuu> ok 20:17:56 <Zuu> It seems that there is not much AI activity nowdays on the forums. 20:18:04 <LordAro> true :( 20:18:26 <Rubidium> then you haven't seen the spam yet ;) 20:18:37 <LordAro> ? 20:19:09 <Rubidium> spambots are sort of AI 20:19:52 <LordAro> Zuu: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/ai-aroai/ 20:19:57 <LordAro> told you ^^ 20:20:59 <LordAro> i've spent far too long on the debug messaging system :L 20:21:00 <Zuu> About the same ammount of commits since my last version. :-) http://hg.openttdcoop.org/ai-cluelessplus/ 20:21:17 <Zuu> LordAro: Why, when there is one in SuperLib :-p 20:21:34 <Zuu> But maybe your is better? :-) 20:21:38 <LordAro> SuperLib seems like cheating to me :P 20:22:38 <LordAro> Zuu: feel free to take a look: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/ai-aroai/file/ba3c57b194e4/util.nut 20:22:42 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A494.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 20:23:45 <Zuu> I'm sorry to tell, but I cannot offer the fullstop parameter that you have. :-) 20:24:25 <LordAro> i'm not sure that works, tbh, never really tested it :L 20:24:47 <LordAro> i'm sure i saw somewhere that optional paramters don't work, at least in OTTD 20:25:08 <Zuu> But if your thing works, then use that rather than learning to use my log facility as your is more simple than mine. 20:25:09 <Zuu> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/superlib/repository/entry/log.nut 20:25:44 <Zuu> Optional params work in squirrel code. However, overloading is not working. 20:26:27 <Zuu> Eg you can make a param (at the end) optional by setting a default value. But you cannot have two functions with the same name but different amount of parameters. 20:26:48 <Zuu> The later is called overloading and is supported in eg. C++. 20:27:02 * LordAro nods 20:28:01 <__ln__> is there a newgrf for: http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/car/restaurant/McDonalds.jpg 20:28:46 <LordAro> Zuu: your thing looks... scary :L 20:30:23 <Alberth> __ln__: would it even be allowed to make it? 20:31:46 <Zuu> LordAro: You only need to read down to line 124 at most. 20:34:45 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 20:35:30 <Zuu> It has the three colors .Info, .Warning .Error as in AILog. In addition to that it adds three detail levels of the log messages. By default it asks you to have a numeric setting log_level [1, 3] in info.nut, but it also allows you to override the function that decides which log messages to print if you want to add more levels. 20:35:58 <Zuu> For example one could set replace the default function with one that rejects all log messages if you want to ensure that SuperLib never prints any log messages. 20:36:08 <Zuu> -set 20:37:48 <Zuu> but as said, if you have written your own log class that fit how you want it to be, use that rather than trying to learn my concept. 20:38:15 <LordAro> + "20:31:36 LordAro SuperLib seems like cheating to me " :P 20:38:25 <Zuu> :-) 20:38:49 <LordAro> i do have a todo list: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ai-aroai/wiki/TODO_List 20:43:26 <Zuu> Once I've fixed all instability of aircraft connections in CluelessPlus, I'm thinking about adding feeders to Clueless plus to supply airports with low passenger supply. 20:44:31 <Zuu> Then I can use some code I've written for the next PAXLink version that probably will never be released. (namely attach bus stops at any side of an airport) 20:45:10 <LordAro> it's a shame paxlink never worked properly - i always liked the concept 20:46:38 <Zuu> I think if I would have spent more time on it, it could have worked, but I ended up focusing on CluelessPlus as it was a path that gave progress quicker. 20:47:09 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-114.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:47:35 <Zuu> And working from the idea that you have a working strategy that from time to time need some support with feeders is probably much more sane. 20:53:55 *** snorre_ [~snorre@c4A06BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has joined #openttd 20:54:43 *** Alberth [~hat3@2001:980:272e:1:21a:92ff:fe55:fc8d] has left #openttd [] 20:55:43 *** snorre [~snorre@c4A06BF51.dhcp.as2116.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:00:12 *** Hyronymus1 [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 21:01:34 *** Muxy [~Muxy@88.122.0.24] has joined #openttd 21:04:18 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:04:23 *** pjpe [b8af1d68@ircip3.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 21:04:42 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:13:34 *** keoz [~keikoz@159.90.76.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: keoz] 21:16:41 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d172-218-21-135.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:19:16 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 21:24:14 *** Hyronymus1 [~Thunderbi@s53757898.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus1] 21:28:18 *** LordAro [5194f220@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 21:41:08 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:45:51 <Terkhen> good night 21:52:41 *** DaZ [~derp@87-205-253-203.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:54:12 *** DaZ [~derp@77-255-41-146.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd 21:57:14 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@78.96.213.97] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:21:30 *** BadBrett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd 22:27:40 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:40:41 *** Beardie [~chatzilla@cpc8-pres13-2-0-cust118.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 22:46:55 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:47:12 *** chester_ [~chester@89-178-175-19.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:53:12 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-158-32.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 22:55:08 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:55:56 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:00:44 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B605.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:44 <Wolf01> 'night 23:06:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host11-216-dynamic.48-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 23:16:12 *** George|2 [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 23:16:12 *** George is now known as Guest8001 23:16:12 *** George|2 is now known as George 23:21:31 *** Guest8001 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:23:21 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:28:15 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 23:39:05 *** Frankr [~chatzilla@cpc4-pres13-2-0-cust231.pres.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:56:53 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-72-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd