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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 09:59:00 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-123-63.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 10:30:00 *** cypher [~Miranda@wced-133-219-32-147.feld.cvut.cz] has joined #openttd 10:35:05 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d821daf.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:20 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:48:33 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 10:50:25 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 10:57:31 *** cypher [~Miranda@wced-133-219-32-147.feld.cvut.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 12:20:16 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-179-111.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:21:21 *** Jake|afk [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:21:26 *** Jake|afk_ [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:21:32 *** Jake|afk_ is now known as Jake|afk 12:46:05 *** Jake|afk [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:46:11 *** Jake|afk_ [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 12:46:16 *** Jake|afk_ is now known as Jake|afk 12:55:35 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:55:35 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest4592 12:55:35 *** Jake|afk [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:55:35 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 12:55:37 *** Guest4592 [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:18:50 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest4595 13:18:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 13:22:45 *** andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 13:25:38 *** Guest4595 [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:26:57 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 13:32:51 <V453000> is there a 32bpp palette anywhere or does that just mean I can use any 256_256_256 rgb colour without palletizing the image? 13:34:32 <lobster> I think so, yes 13:35:45 <V453000> yes which option ? :D 13:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the one that makes sense :) 14:02:00 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-96-69.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 14:04:17 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@79-68-96-178.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 14:07:45 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-101-40.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:09:42 <Flygon> Which is probaby 32-bit RGB :B 14:10:10 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-96-69.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:23:15 *** Kitty [freemadi@tao.quixotic.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:23:31 <Kjetil> Not 30-bit YCbCr ? :P 14:33:13 *** telanus [~telanus@105-236-172-139.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has left #openttd [] 14:45:35 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f74fb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 14:48:36 *** Kitty [freemadi@tao.quixotic.eu] has joined #openttd 14:59:06 <Yexo> 32-bit RGBA to be exact 15:04:57 <V453000> I sticked with 8bpp anyway :P 15:07:41 <frosch123> with 32bpp you can give the animation colours different brightness :p 15:07:41 <Belugas> hello 15:08:01 <frosch123> hello sir belugas :) 15:23:03 *** lugo- [lugo@apple.bnc4free.com] has joined #openttd 15:25:14 <Belugas> hi sir frosch123 :) 15:26:36 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 15:30:06 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:30:35 *** lugo [bc6f57fe@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 15:48:54 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 15:51:09 *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.240] has joined #openttd 15:53:49 <DanMacK> Hey all 15:55:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:56:40 <DanMacK> Hey andy 15:57:00 <andythenorth> hey dada__ 15:57:03 <andythenorth> DanMacK: :P 15:57:34 *** roadt [~roadt@114.96.140.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:18:26 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 16:18:55 *** DanM [~AndChat61@74.198.9.228] has joined #openttd 16:19:15 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-032-207.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:20:07 *** AndChat-613041 [~AndChat61@74.198.9.214] has joined #openttd 16:22:43 *** AndChat-613041 is now known as DMacK 16:25:58 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-119-167.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 16:26:04 *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:26:04 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0097ae.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:27:14 *** DanM [~AndChat61@74.198.9.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:33:34 *** DMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:33:34 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:34:04 *** Knogle [knogle@1604ds5-soeb.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #openttd 16:37:59 *** kero [~keikoz@1.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 16:45:00 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@5ED1CCB7.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:45:59 *** kero [~keikoz@1.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: kero] 16:46:48 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat-ulcn.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:07:07 *** kero [~keikoz@1.4.69.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 17:08:26 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-032-207.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 17:09:13 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:10:01 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:12:13 *** roland [~roland@93-82-54-166.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #openttd 17:12:44 *** roland is now known as Guest4626 17:15:26 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:16:32 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:16:53 *** Guest4567 [~roland@91-115-40-210.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:25:53 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 17:30:23 *** KingPixaIII [~pixa@79-68-96-178.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:37:03 <andythenorth> it's oh so quiet 17:37:13 * andythenorth will talk to himself, that always adds noise 17:49:40 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has joined #openttd 17:50:51 <frosch123> awk syntax is insane 17:53:50 <andythenorth> because...? 17:53:55 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.96.81.170] has joined #openttd 17:54:40 <frosch123> just general, but especially around "|" 18:15:46 <andythenorth> anyone want to script appending '_1' to the end of every .png filename in firs/src/graphics? 18:16:42 <SpComb> for file in firs/src/graphics/*.png; do mv $file ${file/.png/_1.png}; done 18:18:00 <SpComb> for file in firs/src/graphics/*.png; do mv $file ${file%.png}_1.png; done 18:18:19 <SpComb> may eat your files 18:19:59 <andythenorth> worked 18:20:08 <andythenorth> ta 18:23:05 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:7824:3766:2c60:8345] has joined #openttd 18:23:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:34:00 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:36:29 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 18:40:21 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@5ED1CCB7.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 18:45:05 *** efess [~Efess@ool-18bfeb53.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 18:51:06 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-109-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 18:51:07 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:59 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:56:23 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.181.11] has joined #openttd 18:58:09 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 19:00:46 <andythenorth> so if I have "glass_works_snow_1.png" 19:00:53 <andythenorth> and want "glass_works_1_snow.png" 19:01:32 <andythenorth> for file in firs/src/graphics/*_snow_1.png; do mv $file ${file/.png/_1_snow.png}; done 19:01:37 <andythenorth> might work :P 19:02:14 <andythenorth> oops 19:03:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CE8F.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:03:50 * andythenorth got there in the end :P 19:07:27 <andythenorth> nml sprite cache makes a big difference to compile time btw 19:07:34 <andythenorth> only noticeable when you rename all pngs :P 19:38:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19329.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 19:42:02 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host115-94-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:42:12 <Wolf01> hello o/ 19:44:36 <NGC3982> Evening. 19:45:12 *** oskari892 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 19:45:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24663 /trunk/src (widgets/statusbar_widget.h window_type.h) (2012-11-05 19:45:45 UTC) 19:45:52 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Unify the naming of widget enums. 19:48:10 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:53:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24664 /trunk/src/script/api (5 files in 3 dirs) (2012-11-05 19:53:05 UTC) 19:53:12 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Add script to generate enums in script_window.hpp 19:56:21 <andythenorth> I need a FIRS makefile target that suppresses the python step :P 19:56:30 <andythenorth> saves me 7s on compile time ;P 19:58:04 <frosch123> take it positive, every compile gives you 7 extra seconds to chat here 19:59:03 <andythenorth> yeah, that's nice for the rest of you :) 20:02:03 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:02:41 <andythenorth> it's bonfire night in UK 20:02:44 <andythenorth> smokey 20:02:57 <andythenorth> so how about fixing ship smoke? o_O 20:03:07 * andythenorth goes back to fixing FIRS 20:03:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24665 trunk/src/script/api/script_window.hpp (2012-11-05 20:03:17 UTC) 20:03:24 <DorpsGek> -Doc [FS#5353]: [Script] Add note about the compatibility aspects of the enums in ScriptWindow. 20:06:02 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has joined #openttd 20:06:43 *** Devroush36 [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 20:08:08 *** LordAro [~LordAro@host217-43-119-167.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:10:03 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:24:10 * andythenorth has brain boggle 20:32:31 <andythenorth> is there any magic date that will serve as 'forever' ? 20:32:34 <andythenorth> [in nml] 20:32:38 <andythenorth> nvm if not 20:33:17 <Rubidium> 01-01-5 000 001 20:35:24 <andythenorth> is repeating spritelayouts *a lot* a problem? 20:35:46 <andythenorth> it's simpler to have varaction 2 switching layouts than doing logic in the spritelayout itself 20:36:25 <frosch123> add 32bpp sprites to firs 20:36:34 <frosch123> then the size of code will never matter again 20:36:57 <frosch123> s/32bpp/extra zoom/ 20:41:19 <andythenorth> :P 20:42:48 <andythenorth> ok 20:42:55 <andythenorth> so I have "hide_sprite: !(terrain_type != TILETYPE_SNOW);" 20:43:04 <andythenorth> and I need that to also handle date conditions 20:43:17 <andythenorth> so if != snow and if between date 1 and date 2 20:43:21 <andythenorth> how do I do that? 20:44:02 <andythenorth> and in many cases date 1 may be 0, and date 2 may be omitted :P 20:44:21 <andythenorth> but I can handle the latter challenge in python 20:44:57 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-109-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:44:59 <Yexo> "hide_sprite: !(terrain_type != TILETYPE_SNOW);" <- please rewrite that to "hide_sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW);" 20:45:25 <Yexo> how do you have the dates in python? 20:45:30 <Yexo> as year? 20:45:54 <andythenorth> as whatever we need :) 20:45:57 <andythenorth> they're not done yet 20:46:04 <Yexo> so pick what you want :) 20:46:10 <andythenorth> year 20:46:13 <Yexo> nml has as function "date(year, month, day)" 20:46:34 * andythenorth removes the double ! 20:46:39 <Yexo> so the sprite should be shown below the snowline between certain dates? 20:47:13 <andythenorth> yes 20:47:22 <andythenorth> there is an accompanying snow sprite too 20:47:38 <andythenorth> but I can manage copy and paste to that I reckon :) 20:47:57 <Yexo> hide_sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) || current_year < $(first_year) || current_year > $(last_year); 20:48:10 <Yexo> please change the python template syntax to whatever works :p 20:48:14 <andythenorth> thanks 20:48:31 <Yexo> || current_year > $(last_year); <- you can leave that off if the last year is "forever" 20:49:01 <andythenorth> ta 20:49:36 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-032-207.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 20:51:13 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-109-215.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 20:52:40 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-101.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 20:58:12 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-123-63.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:02:19 <andythenorth> FIRS is getting...complex :) 21:10:25 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-101.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:13:27 *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.241] has joined #openttd 21:13:52 <andythenorth> o/ 21:15:48 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-94-211.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 21:23:26 *** Jake|afk [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:27:27 *** flaa [~flaa@188.141.45.124] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:30:51 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-138-119-145.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:32:32 *** Jake|afk is now known as Jake 21:40:32 *** Jake [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:40:50 *** Jake|afk [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 21:40:55 *** Jake|afk is now known as Jake 21:41:33 *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:41:53 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:52:15 <andythenorth> helps to put 'return' into a method if you want the value back :P 21:57:16 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 21:58:20 *** krinn [~krinn@115.227.101.84.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 21:58:31 <krinn> hi all 21:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i know this problem :) 21:59:19 <krinn> AI event change names again or i lost something ? 21:59:30 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@5ED1CCB7.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 22:00:31 <krinn> ah, lol ok, no that's me, i miss the new names scheme is only for the eventtype 22:03:22 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:07:39 <andythenorth> hmm 22:07:46 <andythenorth> what kind of graphics would you like for FIRS? 22:07:53 <andythenorth> date sensitive? 22:07:57 <andythenorth> or not date sensitive? 22:08:00 <V453000> the current ones :) 22:08:24 <V453000> what does it mean date sensitive? like that they change with the game? 22:08:55 * Terkhen likes the current ones too 22:09:25 <andythenorth> date sensitive = change over time 22:09:35 <andythenorth> e.g. steam cranes -> diesel cranes 22:09:39 <krinn> andythenorth, anything you wish as long as an AI can detect it :) 22:10:32 <krinn> andythenorth, oh i see, you mean temporal evolution of graphism ? 22:10:38 <andythenorth> yup 22:12:06 <andythenorth> hmm 22:12:14 <krinn> as einstein said, shouldn't you end-up with rocks ? 22:12:22 <MNIM> andythenorth: based on build-date with an option to disable, please? 22:12:27 <andythenorth> eh? 22:12:32 <andythenorth> fuck that 22:12:42 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:13:14 <andythenorth> or to put it another way, what's the benefit ofthat? 22:13:14 *** Jake [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:13:38 *** Jake [~chatzilla@host31-51-108-249.range31-51.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 22:14:18 <Ammler> making a setting would make the voting useless ;-) 22:14:27 <Terkhen> settings are nice, the more the merrier 22:14:32 <andythenorth> yup 22:14:33 <frosch123> i want a webinterface to click and drag my own composition of firs graphics 22:14:40 <Terkhen> proof: see OpenTTD advanced settings window 22:14:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: you can have one, it's paint.NET :) 22:14:53 <Terkhen> but yes, in this case a setting would not hurt :) 22:15:05 <Terkhen> unless it makes some huge mess in the graphics block / callbacks 22:15:12 <andythenorth> no it could be done 22:15:15 <Ammler> so the voting is for default setting 22:15:18 <andythenorth> I just don't see the gain 22:15:31 <krinn> i don't see the point of setting in newGRF as AI cannot click on them themselves 22:15:55 <Terkhen> well, honestly I don't see the gain in redrawing industries again unless it is a very low priority task :P 22:15:59 <Ammler> players can't either, usually 22:16:05 <andythenorth> it seems rather fine-grained to need to control the type of graphics used? 22:16:09 <MNIM> andythenorth: making great eyecandy monuments to my megalomane stations? 22:16:17 <andythenorth> just change the game date 22:16:20 <andythenorth> problem solved 22:16:28 <frosch123> krinn: you want a screenshot api? plus object recognition? 22:16:48 <andythenorth> frosch123: I could encode object information into nml :P 22:16:49 <MNIM> Hmmmh, good point. okay, so no disabling then :P 22:16:52 <andythenorth> if you provide a spec 22:17:01 <andythenorth> hmm 22:17:08 <krinn> frosch123, well, it would be abuse for that usage, but many engine have extra newGRF feature we cannot choose 22:17:10 <Yexo> frosch123: just a screenshot api, let him figure out the object recognition in squirrel :p 22:17:14 <andythenorth> AIs that auto-screenshot my stuff? 22:17:17 <andythenorth> good for testing :P 22:17:22 <andythenorth> bit like selenium :P 22:18:00 <andythenorth> anyway the poll is moot :) 22:18:02 <andythenorth> the code is done 22:18:05 <frosch123> we should just give ais rcon access 22:18:16 <frosch123> then they can kick the player, if he blocks their station 22:18:18 <krinn> like a triain with 1000HP and 100spd or the same engine with 400HP and 120spd : ai cannot pickup the version they wish... So yes, the more options in newGRF is more trouble for AI as, at best they cannot use them 22:18:22 <frosch123> or they can just stop other ais :) 22:18:43 <frosch123> or move themself to the human company and transfer all money 22:18:45 <andythenorth> krinn: oh, you're going to hate FIRS economies parameter :( 22:18:48 <andythenorth> sorry 22:18:52 <andythenorth> it's done by the way 22:19:01 <krinn> it's ok don't worry, i hate all newGRF 22:19:10 <Yexo> go almost bankrupt and move the human player to the AI company :p 22:19:21 <Terkhen> I think that krinn means new "models" available via refitting 22:19:25 <krinn> Yexo :) 22:19:45 <Yexo> andythenorth: I don't think FIRS is that bad for AIs 22:19:52 <andythenorth> krinn: do you detect industries and cargos with code, or do you have a lookup table for each newgrf? 22:19:53 <krinn> Terkhen, that's what i saw, but many other hidden stuff may exist, and ones more painful for AI i suppose 22:19:53 <Terkhen> the AIs should be able to detect all present cargos even if FIRS settings change 22:20:21 <Yexo> at least most (all?) industries have predictable cargo's (as soon as the parameter is set they don't change), there are no stockpiles 22:20:34 <Yexo> andythenorth: and it's autodetected of course 22:20:38 <krinn> by code andythenorth but passenger and mail are always problematic 22:20:38 <andythenorth> \o/ 22:20:40 <Terkhen> krinn: having information about all refit "models" available would help both AIs and the refit window itself, which could be improved 22:20:41 <Yexo> AIs can't even figure out which NewGRFs are in use 22:20:53 <Yexo> or rather, not directly 22:21:00 * Terkhen never liked refit models anyways 22:21:04 <andythenorth> did I mention banning subtypes? 22:21:07 <andythenorth> : 22:21:08 <andythenorth> :P 22:21:28 <Yexo> banning subtypes is good for AIs :) 22:21:43 <krinn> Could only detect them indirectly : ikarus vehicle running show ikarus newGRF presence (and it's only assuming that engine is from that set yes) 22:22:19 <andythenorth> subtypes will never be banned; no-one wants the hassle :) 22:22:41 <Terkhen> with regard to detecting refit models, IIRC the NewGRF callbacks that define them can depend on runtime stuff 22:22:42 <andythenorth> leave AI authors to deal with it, they're quite well behaved, and they don't have a crowd of monkeys on the forums backing them up :) 22:22:56 <krinn> But seriously the "i change my length if i'm use with that loco type"... kind of options sucks balls for AI, and i would say even for me 22:23:04 <andythenorth> whereas touching person x's favourite grf causes much throwing of peanuts 22:23:22 <frosch123> just implement sandbox construction 22:23:33 <Terkhen> and therefore OpenTTD cannot check what "false models" are available just with checking the real model, it needs an specific vehicle 22:23:35 <frosch123> and consist-based replacement 22:24:10 <frosch123> wasn't there even a patch on the forums? :) 22:24:35 *** Hyronymus [~Thunderbi@5ED1CCB7.cm-7-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Hyronymus] 22:24:55 <andythenorth> subtypes are a social problem, not a spec problem ;) 22:25:22 <Terkhen> we should move NewGRFs to XML 22:25:31 <andythenorth> I did :P 22:25:48 <andythenorth> kinda 22:25:49 <krinn> i don't know subtypes, but any newGRF that have "hidden" rules sucks, as it's a nuisance for human, and a real pain for AI 22:25:58 <frosch123> we have even decoding 22:26:16 <frosch123> grf2html can convert most grf into xml 22:26:20 <andythenorth> so cb36 is the problem :P 22:26:22 <andythenorth> not subtypes 22:26:25 <andythenorth> ban cb36! 22:26:28 <Terkhen> krinn: yes, but sadly... hysterical raisins 22:27:15 <krinn> Terkhen, i know that, what i don't get is that even as human player, i hate that : you pickup a wagon, change the loco and poof, your train is too long while the wagon was of the good size just before... 22:27:44 <andythenorth> this is seen as character 22:27:44 <andythenorth> and realism 22:27:51 <andythenorth> and is not about showing how clever the newgrf author is at all 22:27:59 <Terkhen> I only play with OpenGFX+ Trains 22:28:15 <Terkhen> anything else is too complex for my simple train mind :P 22:28:17 <andythenorth> and ships that change speed load / unloaded have immense gameplay benefit, and are not just andythenorth showing off ;P 22:28:26 <frosch123> does musa allow adding grfs as depenencies to ais? 22:28:41 <frosch123> then krinn's ai can depend on ogfx+trains or nuts 22:29:08 <andythenorth> hmm 22:29:23 <andythenorth> the graphics for all industries of type x will all change at once, everywhere on the map 22:29:24 <Terkhen> oh, I forgot that sometimes I also use the metro part of 2cc 22:29:26 <krinn> newGRF have only create one thing : all AIs learned the magic word "blacklist" 22:29:34 <andythenorth> ^^ this might need some more thought :P 22:30:01 <Yexo> frosch123: not sure, but I don't think it places any restrictions on what can depend on what 22:30:21 <Yexo> but having a bananas dependency doesn't make sure it's only loaded with that newgrf in-game 22:30:30 <Terkhen> andythenorth: use town persistent storage to store a value that determines when will the industry type X of that certain town switch to the new graphics 22:30:34 <Yexo> only that the user has to download that particular newgrf 22:30:40 <andythenorth> Terkhen: nice idea 22:30:43 <andythenorth> or just use random() 22:30:56 <andythenorth> dunno if I can do that in a spritelayout condition 22:31:09 <Terkhen> I'm dissapointed... I was expecting all kinds of crazy stuff with town persistent storage but to my knowledge it still has not been used 22:31:21 <Yexo> if you can do it in a varaction2 chain (= switch-block), you can do it in a spritelayout 22:31:36 <Terkhen> I don't mind it much though, GS already does everything I planned to do with the stuff that requires town persistent storage 22:31:55 <Terkhen> that required* 22:32:21 <Terkhen> I assume that krinn appreciates that stuff never seeing the light of the day :P 22:33:09 <andythenorth> If I can do it in a varaction2 chain, can ${someone else} write it in a spritelayout for me? :P 22:33:20 <krinn> Terkhen, right assumption : don't put thing that change rules if AI cannot get the rules 22:33:37 <andythenorth> Terkhen: store whether a town is 'progressive' or 'slow' for industry changes :P 22:33:41 <andythenorth> just an offset to dates 22:33:55 <andythenorth> if you can store the var and get it, I can template it in :P 22:34:06 <Terkhen> andythenorth: there is a program that converts nfo into nml :P 22:34:33 <krinn> i saw some have "good usage" of flexibility : i saw truck that change livery with fancy graphics a bit random, but the "i change length..." kind of abuse, are well, abusive 22:34:54 <Terkhen> krinn: yes, other people convinced me that NewGRF was not the right way to control town growth :) 22:35:01 * andythenorth has trams that change length, capacity, all sorts :P 22:35:10 <Yexo> <andythenorth> If I can do it in a varaction2 chain, can ${someone else} write it in a spritelayout for me? :P <- sure, but it's easier if you don't write nfo but very clear steps on what you want to do 22:35:42 <andythenorth> I don't actually know, the line above just sounded good ;) 22:35:56 <krinn> Terkhen, i'm not sure what is the right way, but i'm sure what is the bad way : using something that human, or openttd itself cannot see is the bad way 22:36:12 <andythenorth> this needs some source of randomness http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1890/ 22:36:41 <andythenorth> give me a param to pass to the method, I'll template the randomness :P 22:36:56 <andythenorth> needs to be a single numeric offset, always same for a specific industry instance 22:37:18 <andythenorth> there are construction-time random bits, never re-randomised? 22:37:59 * andythenorth needs to sleep :) 22:38:35 <Terkhen> krinn: I don't think that the NewGRF specs original design took those goals into account :P 22:38:55 <Terkhen> or that some people would have to improve AIs in the future 22:39:31 <andythenorth> NewNewGRF! 22:39:34 <andythenorth> good night :) 22:39:35 <Terkhen> the creation of AIs was probably not even imagined :P 22:39:37 <Terkhen> good night andythenorth 22:40:12 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:40:17 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-66-108-51-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 22:40:20 <Terkhen> there was a discussion about scrapping the NewGRF specs recently, although for different reasons 22:40:41 <krinn> some technical difficulties can be solve, but with a pain solve, like building all wagons and refit them to see their real properties when built (but it have a cost, and it's a pain to code), but some are simply undoable : how could i refit to the 800hp 100spd the engine if i don't have the API to do it ? 22:41:26 <Yexo> krinn: this and similar issues have been known since the beginning of NoAI development 22:41:39 <Yexo> however even at that time there were a vast amount of NewGRFs 22:41:48 <Yexo> breaking compatibility with the existing content wasn't very nice 22:42:37 <krinn> Well, it's because it's see as an AI problem, when it's a newGRF problem that affect openttd itself : why openttd cannot told me (a human, well, assume as human) that this wagon cannot be use with that loco until i brought it 22:43:12 <Terkhen> because OpenTTD itself does not know it either until the loco is bought and you try to attach the wagon 22:43:27 <Yexo> the newgrf specs have organically grown, there are worse issues in it than this 22:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> given the popularity of some older newgrf sets and the length of their release cycle, it would probably a bad idea to "scrap" parts of the newgrf specs 22:43:33 <krinn> and we end with the problem : how could an AI query openttd to answer something openttd cannot answer itself :) 22:43:34 <frosch123> Terkhen: that's why you need a sandbox construction mode :) 22:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i won't name names *hÃŒstel* 22:43:52 <Terkhen> frosch123: what do you mean with that? 22:44:01 <Yexo> a certain .b? 22:44:24 <frosch123> Terkhen: imagine something like template based autoreplace. you would be able to compose consists, without actually building them 22:44:32 <krinn> Terkhen, i suppose the "build all wagons, record their properties, sell them" is a sandbox 22:44:33 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-138-119-145.range86-138.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 17.0/20121031065642]] 22:44:36 <frosch123> you would see all properties of the final consist, and then build it as a whole 22:44:41 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19329.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> why is that not included yet? was something wrong with the last implementation? 22:45:05 <frosch123> btw. don't blame the specs on everything :p i mean which ai supports gs? 22:45:19 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:45:19 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i did not look at it 22:45:29 <krinn> more than you think (well sooner) frosch123 :) 22:45:51 <krinn> with scp we can now 22:46:03 <frosch123> krinn: that requires the ai to know the gs exactly 22:46:25 <frosch123> we can also just expose the grfid to ais. you can add support for all 500 newgrfs just fine 22:46:28 <frosch123> no problem at all :p 22:46:29 <krinn> no, this requiere the ai to know the api of the gs : like an ai need to know the api of openttd 22:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> one problem with the newgrf specs is the utter uselessness of cb18 22:47:07 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: we don't even support that 22:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that's a hen-egg-problem 22:47:39 <Terkhen> frosch123: my NewGRF-fu is quite rusty so maybe I'm saying something impossible, but what if I define that a wagon cannot be attached to a consist that is carrying fruit or some other condition that does not depend on the consist itself? 22:47:42 <Yexo> we support cb18 for stations ;) 22:47:56 <Yexo> (the only sane part :p) 22:47:57 <krinn> we made scp using commandSet (read API there), so any GS using that commandSet will be runnable with an API handling that commandSet 22:48:20 <krinn> -> /sAPI/AI ill be runnable with an API handling that commandSet 22:49:08 <frosch123> Terkhen: imo the goal is to make ais only use stuff that humans need as well 22:49:26 <frosch123> a newgrf is unlikely to implement something which breaks something many humans want to use 22:49:36 <frosch123> however, usually they won't bother about ais 22:49:46 <Terkhen> true :) 22:50:06 <Terkhen> besides crazy corner cases like the one I mentioned, that sandbox construction mode should work 22:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> cb18 for trains could work similar to the articulated callback, i.e. the AI passes general data like train length, cargo and station distance, and the NewGRF returns vehicle IDs and refit subtypes until it returns "no more vehicles" 22:50:26 <frosch123> krinn: does it support easy integration of sillicon valley? 22:51:44 <krinn> never saw it frosch123 tbh, it depend what the GS do and what AI can do with it 22:51:47 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: as far as i have seens ais building trains up to now, the main problem is that we have no method to tell ais about the weight 22:51:54 <frosch123> so, all trains are usually stuck at some hill 22:52:09 <frosch123> krinn: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/siliconvalley 22:52:13 *** oskari892 [~oskari89@62-241-226-131.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:52:13 <frosch123> has some screenshots 22:52:15 <frosch123> esp. the goals 22:52:37 <Terkhen> good night 22:52:42 <Wolf01> 'night all 22:52:43 <frosch123> you would really impress me, if scp supports that without the ai explcitly knowing about the gs 22:52:46 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host115-94-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:52:51 <krinn> build 3 industries goal is the facto a no 22:53:28 <krinn> the 2 others are easy to do 22:53:37 <krinn> the 4rd depend on the 1st 22:54:42 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 22:55:10 <krinn> your first goal cannot be made with an AI if i'm right, we don't own the BuildIndustry function 22:55:30 <krinn> zuu add it for GS 22:55:39 <frosch123> ais can do that for long 22:56:00 <frosch123> zuu added stuff to gs, which humans cannot do 22:56:04 <krinn> oh let me check (not something i really bother to do, building industry) 22:56:19 <frosch123> something in AIIndustryType 22:56:36 *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.244] has joined #openttd 22:57:42 <krinn> http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/classAIIndustryType.html#698b2a85d7e821d2ff951e385d4fd8f5 22:58:29 <krinn> so frosch123 this answer your main question : yes AI can play with sillicon valley 22:58:56 <frosch123> krinn: my question was, whether an existing ai can play with gs, without knowing about the script 22:59:11 <frosch123> i.e. can ais deal with it, which were written before silliicon valley 22:59:16 <krinn> no, like any AI cannot play with knowing a new API 22:59:27 <frosch123> exactly, that's the point 22:59:38 <frosch123> you have to adapt every ai to every single gs 23:00:22 <krinn> just like you need to adapt your AI to everything that is new : closing airport will be a pain for older AI while with the new API AI can manage that 23:00:32 <glx> maybe add HasGoal() or GetGoalList() 23:00:53 <frosch123> glx: plus an english dictionary? :p 23:01:26 <frosch123> krinn: so, why is it so bad then to support 500 apis for 500 different newgrfs then :p 23:02:06 <krinn> because you have 0 API for newGRF : you cannot tell anything to AI, and worst, even openttd is foul about them 23:02:30 <frosch123> yes, just the same as for gs 23:02:48 <frosch123> gs cannot tell ais anythign about them without defining a special api 23:02:49 <krinn> if you made an API that expose possible wagon length before their creation : openttd can display that to human and AI can query that thru API 23:03:42 <frosch123> the problem is not the lack of any api, the problem is that a few grfs are just very different to others 23:03:52 <frosch123> no generic api will ever support all newgrfs 23:03:53 *** argoneus [~argoneus@ip-78-102-118-47.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:04:02 <frosch123> just as no generic api will ever support all gs 23:04:34 <krinn> well, for me, it looks more like anarchy than anything 23:04:45 <glx> there's a newgrf with silly industry placement requirements 23:04:48 <frosch123> it's the independency of plugins 23:04:55 <krinn> even dumb i'm sure you can build an engine that claim to be a train that once brought is a chopper and crazy things like that 23:05:06 <frosch123> no, you cannot 23:05:17 <glx> (well not only one indeed -> ECS) 23:06:03 <glx> even for humans it's very hard to build something without looking at the docs 23:06:28 <frosch123> yeah, ecs will likely not work with sillicon valley :) 23:06:38 <frosch123> nothing bad about that, players just have to decide 23:06:46 <frosch123> ecs has basically a gs integrated 23:07:26 <glx> yes, with production variations depending on dates 23:07:46 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-107-7.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 23:07:50 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 23:08:15 <frosch123> glx: well, i guess that is no problem. people who want to play with seaonsal changes, likely don't play with ais 23:08:30 <frosch123> ais don't fit the scenery of a model railway 23:08:50 <krinn> i don't see a problem with that, AI will see production change no ? 23:09:04 <krinn> even the AI cannot know the date the change occurs 23:09:17 <frosch123> krinn: it does not matter 23:09:24 <frosch123> the production changes seasonal 23:09:30 <frosch123> some industries produce only in summer 23:09:44 <frosch123> so, your trains only load half of the year, and wait the other half 23:09:46 <glx> they will see it, but without knowing the industry produces for only 3 months they will bankrupt rapidely 23:09:54 <frosch123> i actually have no idea how humans play with that :p 23:10:10 <frosch123> i doubt they send the trains to the depot every half year 23:10:15 <frosch123> or send them on a different route 23:10:17 <glx> and there are also industry chains 23:10:57 <glx> and "special" cargo increasing productions, but not required 23:11:28 <Yexo> <krinn> i don't see a problem with that, AI will see production change no ? <- try your AI in a game with ECS and see how well it copes 23:11:32 <frosch123> yup, and for such stuff there will never be an api :p 23:11:38 <Yexo> it's very hard to support 23:11:47 <frosch123> such special mechanics only work when the ai/human know exactly about the grf 23:12:38 <krinn> frosch123, like i said : if no API exist to inform the AI any fancy trick the newGRF do cannot be seen 23:13:08 <frosch123> krinn: what i am trying to tell you all the time. there will never be an generic api 23:13:20 <frosch123> it does not matter whether it is a newgrf or a script 23:13:28 <glx> IIRC ECS also use stockpiling and stop accepting cargo when full 23:13:29 <frosch123> the "language" is not the problem here 23:13:49 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-18-46.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:13:51 <frosch123> ecs and sillicon valley provide very special mechanics 23:14:06 <frosch123> an ai will only be able to cope with them, if it is explicitly coded for them 23:14:47 <frosch123> if you want an api, the only api that makes sense is one which tells, which newgrf or gs is running 23:15:00 <frosch123> then you can implement special behaviour for those you know 23:15:06 <krinn> and what i'm telling you isn't that : i'm telling you as long as you can tell the AI what is going on, an AI could be made using it 23:15:56 <frosch123> i am only interested in generic apis :) 23:16:20 <frosch123> i.e. where you can make the ai before the gs/newgrf is coded 23:17:46 <krinn> well, impossible to do, just like now: AI can only use function from API version it handle, how could it use functions that doesn't exist yet :) 23:20:08 <krinn> Take the engine simple example: if you made an API for AI that can query the engine refit properties before building them, the AI (yes after update) will be able to handle any engine with such a feature 23:20:23 <Yexo> krinn: an AI written a few years ago can cope perfectly with new vehicle NewGRFs that are written today 23:20:30 <Yexo> as long as no fancy tricks are used of course 23:20:38 <Yexo> but for the general case the existing API works 23:21:00 <krinn> Yexo, yes, but fancy tricks is the problem 23:21:21 <frosch123> i thought that's what makes it interesting :p 23:21:26 <Yexo> so you want to extend the API with a new function for every fancy trick used by one NewGRF or one GameScript? 23:22:19 <krinn> GS part is doable now, newGRF still need one 23:22:42 <Yexo> that means towards NewGRF we have two options: 1) Give them freedom like now and try to detect a lot of special cases. Hard to get right. 2) Limit the freedom of NewGRF authors by giving them only access to some well-defined functions. These functions can be exported to AIs without any problem 23:22:56 <Yexo> option 2) would make the live of AI devs a lot easier 23:23:16 <krinn> why only AI ? option 2 is good for humans too 23:23:24 <Yexo> but it's A) not backwards compatible and B) limits the freedom of NewGRF devs that has created so many nice NewGRFs until now 23:23:38 <krinn> if you don't know the newGRF you are playing with, you get bore fast with the stupid things they add in them 23:23:53 <frosch123> krinn: it's not good for humans 23:24:04 <frosch123> it means they have to wait for ecs till 2030 23:24:19 <frosch123> it's like implemeting everything directly into openttd 23:24:28 <frosch123> there would be no plugins at all 23:24:40 <krinn> i have add many vehicles for testing against my AI, and try myself play with that, and get bore to see a wagon change because of this or that magically 23:25:04 <frosch123> well, then you should not play with those :) 23:25:16 <krinn> endup with buying classic wagon and engine as i'm not an AI to test all possibilites 23:25:20 <frosch123> different players, different interests 23:25:53 <krinn> for ecs or newGRF that change gameplay yes 23:26:02 <krinn> but seriously affect gameplay with vehicle just sucks 23:26:26 <frosch123> that's a very personal opinion :) 23:26:26 <krinn> specially because openttd cannot warn me in the selection screen as itself cannot know it 23:26:57 <Yexo> others like trams that can be refit to different lengths because it keeps the list of all engines shorter 23:27:05 <Yexo> which is something that doesn't bother AIs, but does bother humans 23:27:44 <krinn> well, the problem came from not knowing: if tram of size 10 can be refit to size 8, human might like that and pickup the size he wish 23:28:33 <krinn> but if openttd don't tell the human the tram size will be 8 because of this: the human buy a tram of length 10 to endup with a 8, and it's boring 23:29:22 *** DanMacK [~AndChat61@74.198.9.244] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:30:05 <krinn> so having size change with refit is a perfect example, human can see refit option and pick the one he like : it's totally different than having an option on screen telling you size 10 and when buying it because of wagon Z add to it, the size change to 8 23:30:57 <krinn> after testing 3-4 engines, i gave up with all this shit, and endup with classic engine, because they do what openttd is telling you they will do 23:31:43 <krinn> Just like the new aircraft distance limit 23:32:12 <krinn> you brought an aircraft because the prize capacity and all and : what the fuck i cannot use that because my airports are too far 23:32:49 <Yexo> again: some players like that, others don't. If you don't, disable the aircraft limits altogether 23:33:29 <krinn> i'm not sure if recent openttd change it 23:33:48 <krinn> but last time i try : it wasn't telling me the distance an aircraft could do 23:35:44 <krinn> so you cannot pickup an unknown aircraft as you cannot be sure if it have the limit or not 23:35:44 *** Devroush36 [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:35:44 <Yexo> I thought the distance was displayed in the purchase menu, but never really bothered to check 23:35:44 <krinn> last time i try, it wasn't 23:35:44 <krinn> let me check (but i'm using 1.2 now) 23:37:13 <Yexo> it doesn't display the range 23:37:14 <krinn> i'm not sure on 1.2 it tell me refit... i don't see anything related to distance and i think it's that newgrf 23:37:35 <krinn> ah yes sucks, it is 23:37:36 <Yexo> something to be improved 23:37:43 <Yexo> but good night 23:37:48 <krinn> building two airport, buying an aircraft and got the error now 23:38:03 <krinn> ok night 23:45:47 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:53:55 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d821daf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My life for Aiur] 23:59:23 *** krinn [~krinn@115.227.101.84.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte]