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But the idea of coding it as 1 large sprite is puzzling me 07:02:39 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:02:39 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:12:24 *** Progman [~progman@p57A199DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you get 1MB per sprite? 07:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can have child sprites for the animated parts 07:22:47 <V453000> idk, I got like max 100kb atm :d 07:23:03 <V453000> anyway, is it possible to have 1 large sprite for 4x4 industri? 07:23:07 <V453000> like coded at the front 07:23:34 <V453000> and have the rest of 4x4 get just empty sprite 07:24:35 <Eddi|zuHause> not really 07:24:46 <V453000> why not? :d 07:25:03 <planetmaker> moin 07:25:08 <V453000> hy (: 07:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you get glitches if the sprite extends too far to the left and right 07:25:16 <V453000> hm 07:25:23 <planetmaker> @calc 64*172*4*4*4 07:25:23 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 704512 07:25:24 <V453000> but glitches with what? the ground? 07:25:41 <planetmaker> so I'd expect even for an over-sized house sprite at most 700kB 07:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like it will disappear if you scroll halfway out 07:25:53 <planetmaker> sprites must never be wider than a tile 07:26:01 <V453000> hm ok :) 07:26:50 <planetmaker> cut it in several ones which are drawn on adjacent tiles 07:27:11 <V453000> I do that currently yes, it just has little less-than-a-pixel gaps in between 07:27:13 <V453000> of aplha 07:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have one single image file, but you have to cut it into several sprites in the code 07:27:48 <planetmaker> I'd do like eddi suggest: one file which you cut the sprites from directly in the nml code 07:27:50 <V453000> well sure but that isnt really helping, would have to do too much cutting :P 07:27:55 <V453000> OH 07:27:58 <V453000> :d 07:28:15 <V453000> so the code alone can cut sprites 07:28:15 <V453000> hm 07:28:26 <planetmaker> sure. just define the rectangle which is the sprite 07:28:52 <planetmaker> you only have to make sure that it adds up to a whole ingame. Thus no overlap, but also no gap 07:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> overlap doesn't hurt 07:29:32 <planetmaker> it's like creating a puzzle by cutting the image 07:29:57 <planetmaker> but cutting it in the image programme is not required 07:29:58 <V453000> right 07:30:04 <V453000> great :) 07:30:20 <V453000> that is one less thing to worry about 07:30:21 <V453000> thanks 07:31:42 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:36:21 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 07:49:58 *** Jomann [~abchirk@p57A083A0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 08:01:00 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.164.39] has joined #openttd 08:15:18 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host-92-24-25-152.ppp.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 08:17:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~flex@88.130.160.203] has joined #openttd 08:24:44 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6DF5.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:50:44 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:53:41 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:13:33 <planetmaker> that's a first... no new postings at tt-forums 09:15:01 *** SylvieLorxu [~sylvie@dslb-146-060-165-134.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:24:50 *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po2-84-90-120-62.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd 09:25:22 <Samu> hi 09:37:49 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 09:43:24 *** sylvieL [~sylvie@dslb-188-109-217-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 09:45:54 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:49:35 *** SylvieLorxu [~sylvie@dslb-146-060-165-134.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:50:42 *** fjb is now known as Guest8288 09:50:44 *** fjb [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:50:57 *** Rapha [~Rapha@aftr-37-24-159-23.unity-media.net] has joined #openttd 09:57:44 *** Guest8288 [~frank@000158aa.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:59:13 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd 10:07:14 *** Dan9550 [~dan9550@49.248.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:07:52 *** Dan9550 [~dan9550@49.248.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #openttd 10:11:14 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:15:05 <Samu> this is a nice page explaining how trains accelerate http://wiki.openttd.org/Tractive_Effort 10:16:08 <Samu> will it apply to road vehicles realistic acceleration too? 10:18:37 <Xaroth|Work> http://i.imgur.com/xv3yg5O.jpg 10:18:39 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:21:01 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has joined #openttd 10:21:11 <planetmaker> hehe 10:28:02 <Samu> :(, but will it apply to road vehicles? 10:28:29 <Samu> is the ton used in the example metric ton or imperial ton? 10:28:44 <Samu> which one the game uses to calculate? 10:29:32 <Xaroth|Work> the difference is 1.6% ... 10:29:36 <Xaroth|Work> I mean.. does that really matter? 10:30:32 <Samu> I am not sure 10:30:53 <planetmaker> rethoric questions are rethoric, I guess 10:31:09 <Xaroth|Work> it'd be an issue if it was not clear if it were a short or a long ton 10:31:31 <planetmaker> openttd knows them all... 10:32:07 <planetmaker> @calc 716*8 10:32:07 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 5728 10:33:17 *** Devroush [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has joined #openttd 10:33:53 <Samu> how did you come up with the 35 N constant 10:35:02 <Xaroth|Work> define 'you' 10:35:27 <Samu> ah, nevermind 10:35:38 <Samu> the force needed to move on superficies 10:36:26 <planetmaker> you can go and simply measure it 10:39:32 <Samu> so it all boils down to tractive effort 10:39:37 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3043.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:39:58 <Samu> were those values on vehicles made up 10:40:26 <Samu> it really feels that vehicles move faster with realistic acceleration than original 10:42:24 <Pinkbeast> Sometimes they do because of the way a slope is essentially a fixed malus to speed in original 10:43:16 <Pinkbeast> ... for example a heavy freight locomotive with a train of empties will be faster up a slope with realistic acceleration, I think 10:43:37 <Samu> were tractive effort values available on original TTD hidden somewhere in the files? 10:44:11 <Pinkbeast> metric vs. imperial ton> "How Steam Locomotives Really Work" dismisses this with the observation that a week's worth of dirt on a locomotive could more than make up the difference. :-) 10:45:02 <Samu> I'm trying to come up with similar settings 10:45:06 <Samu> for realistic acceleration 10:45:18 <Samu> to be comparable with original acceleration 10:46:04 <Samu> realistic still accelerate much faster when starting up from 0 km/h 10:47:12 <Pinkbeast> That does depend on tractive effort (try the UKRS2 4-2-0 Crampton on a hill start, then rearrange all your signal positions so one never starts uphill) 10:47:13 <Samu> then, they reach a cliff and things get more complicated to adjust 10:47:24 <Samu> i can increase a simulated weight 10:52:02 <Samu> reaching hills is where things get complicated to adjust as I was saying. when a train is going up hill and then downhill, and the whole size of it accounts for both up and down tiles, the force nullifies each other, don't know if I'm being clear 10:52:27 <Samu> if it needs 100 to go up, what happens when it starts going down? 10:52:29 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's true in realistic if the train is of uniform density 10:53:15 <Samu> yes, but is it supposed to be like that? 10:54:03 <Samu> 100-35? 10:54:08 <Samu> or 100-100 10:54:16 <Samu> or am I totally wrong? 10:54:42 <Pinkbeast> "Supposed"? 10:54:58 <Samu> how does it work in the game 10:55:01 <Samu> that's the question 10:56:04 <supermop> pub successful 10:56:17 <Samu> what? 10:56:29 <Pinkbeast> I think you'd do best to look at the source rather than rely on anyone's half-remembered memory of the original acceleration model, I'm afraid 10:56:33 <planetmaker> they had enough beer, supermop ? :) 10:56:48 <planetmaker> or is there a different scale of success? 10:56:55 <Samu> http://wiki.openttd.org/Tractive_Effort 10:57:00 <Samu> looking at there 10:57:01 <Pinkbeast> I strongly suspect if you get tractive effort low enough to produce original-like acceleration from the flat, vehicles will be nightmarishly slow uphill 10:57:22 <planetmaker> original acceleration makes no use of tractive effort. iirc 10:57:30 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Indeed. 10:57:37 <Samu> i am referring to realistic 10:57:57 <supermop> beer nd food planetmaker 10:58:03 <Pinkbeast> But if I understand correctly, Samu is trying to give vehicles stats for realistic acceleration which produce performance similar to original acceleration? 10:58:36 <Samu> exactly, similar, but I know it's not gonna be equal 10:58:37 <planetmaker> sounds nice enough, supermop :) 10:58:49 <Samu> the main problem I have is hills 10:58:57 <Samu> going up, then down 10:59:07 <Samu> while the train is still taking up both up and down tiles 10:59:29 <Samu> that's the most difficult part to come up with similar settings 10:59:36 <planetmaker> the main problem you have is that you need to understand how TE and power work for vehicles acceleration. And how that is influenced by a slope 10:59:56 <Pinkbeast> Samu: I think (if the density of the train is uniform) then going up-and-down will do very little regardless of vehicle power and TE 11:00:36 <planetmaker> openttd uses the simple physics formula there. With the variables for power, te, slope, air friction coeff., mass etc as given by vehicles and game config 11:00:40 <Samu> so it's a +100 when going up, then -100 when going down? per tile? 11:00:50 <Samu> given the wiki example 11:00:56 <Samu> i'm guiding myself from there 11:01:33 <Pinkbeast> Samu: That 100N is just 1 tonne x (one percent incline) x gravity at 10m/s/s 11:02:05 <Pinkbeast> As in, it's not an arbitary figure in the game, it's the actual force of gravity. So unless someone has ballsed it up, I expect it is the inverse when going downslope 11:03:23 <supermop> hmm could a vehicle with 0 hp accelerate provided it only ever traversed flat and downward slopes? 11:03:46 * planetmaker goes try wasteland2. The OpenTTD wasteland newgrf inspired me to finally redeem my beta access :P 11:04:06 <planetmaker> supermop, on level slope 0hp won't give you acceleration 11:04:37 <planetmaker> obviously downhill you don't need much power to accelerate. You might need a tiny bit to overcome the rolling friction 11:04:53 <planetmaker> depends on steepness and rolling friction coeff 11:05:08 <Pinkbeast> Part of the reason steam locomotives accelerate so fast with realistic acceleration is power ~= grate area, which is fine at sustained speed, but maximum tractive effort at a start is a function of boiler pressure and cylinder dimensions as well as traction 11:05:29 <supermop> hmm seems my dreams of logs on log flumes will be dashed 11:05:31 <planetmaker> and mass on powered axles 11:05:46 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Er... that's "traction" 11:06:32 <Samu> air friction coeff. think that's what it's missing 11:06:41 <Samu> or density 11:07:09 <Pinkbeast> If http://wiki.openttd.org/Tractive_Effort gives a sensible figure for rolling resistance, an unpowered train will accelerate from a stop downgrade even on a 1% slope (but the code might first check vehicle power >0 or something...) 11:08:33 <Samu> the faster it goes, the higher the impact of air friction 11:08:52 <Samu> so, going downhill, train won't retain much of the speed 11:09:24 <Samu> (or i just don't know what I'm talking about and suck at physics) 11:09:45 <planetmaker> F_friction ~ v^2 --> P_friction ~ v^3 11:12:42 <Pinkbeast> But power input from gravity is also proportional to v so the effect in an unpowered descent is less 11:13:48 <planetmaker> power input from gravity? That's independent of v. It's acceleration is constant g * tan alpha 11:13:58 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Nope. 11:14:12 <Pinkbeast> At what rate do you turn potential energy into kinetic energy? 11:14:23 <planetmaker> true 11:14:25 <planetmaker> more tea 11:14:32 <Pinkbeast> Put another way, the force is constant, but work is force times distance, so if you travel faster, you do more work per unit time. 11:14:50 <Pinkbeast> ... this is why tandems are scary downhill 11:17:08 <peter1139> Anyone done 'realistic' slowing yet? :p 11:17:39 <Pinkbeast> There've been one or two patches with caution aspects on signals... 11:17:42 <peter1139> Also, 'realistic' acceleration for trains, taking account of the fact that they don't actually accelerate as fast as they can't due to passenger discomfort. 11:17:56 <peter1139> s/can't/can/ 11:18:47 <juzza1> is discomfort level in metric or imperial? 11:19:14 <Pinkbeast> Er, not really. The coefficient of friction is low enough that even modern units with all powered axles try and get away as fast as possible. 11:19:33 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd 11:19:41 <peter1139> But I've played train sims! 11:19:48 <peter1139> And I have to accelerate slowly else I get told off! 11:20:05 <sylvieL> I've played train sims too 11:20:13 <sylvieL> I just accelerated until I crashed 11:20:18 <peter1139> :p 11:20:20 <sylvieL> Found it the most exciting way to play them 11:20:25 *** sylvieL is now known as SylvieLorxu 11:20:52 <peter1139> Same with flight sims :D 11:20:55 <supermop> some subway drivers like to take full advantage of their 64 powered axles in new york, and it can be quite a jolt... 11:21:00 <Pinkbeast> That's more down to the next derivative; it's easy to get wheelslip if you slam it straight into the top notch, and also while the pax can easily bear maximum acceleration (about 1/8 g at most) they don't like a sudden transition to it. 11:21:03 <peter1139> And with driving sims, I tend to crash without trying. 11:21:27 <peter1139> Pinkbeast, fine, then I mean rate of acceleration. 11:21:51 <Pinkbeast> Likewise stopping on a rising brake; you can brake heavily, but the jerk if you suddenly go from that to a dead stop is more serious 11:22:06 <Pinkbeast> peter1139: I think you mean the rate of change of acceleration? 11:22:15 <peter1139> Damn it 11:22:23 <peter1139> m/s/s/s 11:22:56 <Pinkbeast> And the emergency brake doesn't do _much_ more than a full service application, but it causes more damage because it comes on as quickly as possible 11:23:08 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has joined #openttd 11:23:23 <peter1139> Anyway, anyone done that for ottd? :P 11:23:54 *** Devroush [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:24:48 <Pinkbeast> I figure once you've got caution aspects with PBS reserving multiple segments it should be feasible... 11:27:37 <supermop> plus bug reports from users when a signal changes to red before a junction and their train flys through it as it can't stop in time 11:27:57 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's a bug in the real world. :-) 11:29:08 <supermop> really we need a setting to have drivers occasionally forget to obey a signal 11:29:21 *** Dan9550 [~dan9550@49.248.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:29:33 <Samu> that's a nice disaster suggestion 11:29:38 <Samu> i really hate trains 11:29:40 <Samu> sorry 11:29:58 <supermop> the disasters should be opened up to new grf and or GS 11:30:00 *** pthagnar [~pthagnar@cpc5-pres9-0-0-cust199.18-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:30:01 <Pinkbeast> supermop: And then you could spend money on AWS 11:30:13 *** Devroush [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has joined #openttd 11:30:14 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@2605:6400:2:fed5:22:0:6979:842d] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:30:27 <Pinkbeast> But already the situation where road vehicles are perfectly safe (except around trains) and railways are quite dangerous is a bit silly 11:30:29 *** ntx [~ntx@a88-115-29-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:30:32 <supermop> and paying class action settlements to families of the passengers 11:30:57 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:31:09 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:31:29 *** Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd 11:31:37 <supermop> i'd like to see non-disastrous disasters 11:31:50 <Pinkbeast> In the early days AWS availability could be an additional way to differentiate locomotives, more seriously - frex in UK terms the GWR locomotives would always have it 11:35:03 <peter1139> Pinkbeast, pretty sure that would come under BAD FEATURES 11:38:09 <Pinkbeast> peter1139: I think it depends on one's point of view. It seems to me that getting ways to differentiate vehicles that aren't speed, power, capacity, cost is one of the big challenges for larger vehicle sets. 11:38:24 <Pinkbeast> ... it doesn't help that reliability and breakdowns are in such a parlous state 11:38:27 <peter1139> It's not my view at all. 11:38:40 *** ntx_ [~ntx@a88-115-29-236.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 11:39:36 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has joined #openttd 11:40:05 <Pinkbeast> Well, opinions may vary, but even if you don't feel that way yourself, I'm sure you recognise there are people who would like sets to exist where (say) the Jubilee, Black 5, Castle, King, Hall, er one or two LNER 4-6-0s etc all exist and there are reasons why one might use each one 11:41:51 *** Devroush [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:42:15 <supermop> also, for an ideally child-friendly game, why not change the 'bribe' strings to something like 'donation/investment to local institutions' 'massive PR campaign' or even 'lobby local government' 11:42:34 <supermop> don't need to make it explicitly an act of corruption 11:43:11 *** MJP [~mjp@hq.z77.fr] has joined #openttd 11:43:19 <supermop> and instead of getting caught, it could be 'grassroots backlash' 11:46:16 <Pinkbeast> If money wasn't irrelevant there could be a non-bribe facility that's less cost-effective but can't lock you out. 11:46:20 *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:2887:191f:3998:2b21] has joined #openttd 11:46:35 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:47:03 <Pinkbeast> ... I also don't think trains should be having SPAD events and crashing all the time, one or two in an entire game would be enough, but less serious SPAD events could be a source of disruption 11:48:26 <Xaroth|Work> and godzilla should pay regular visits 11:52:26 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 11:56:53 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:56:55 *** KWKdesign [~KWKdesign@pool-108-52-130-213.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 12:02:29 *** Devroush2 [~dennis@109.130.30.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:05:48 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has joined #openttd 12:06:19 <Samu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW0wrxU2elI 12:13:36 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:13:47 <Samu> im listening to modern motion music set 12:13:54 <Samu> it's pretty cool 12:14:12 <Samu> there's one or two tracks that are too loud in relation to others 12:14:50 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f74267f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 12:16:28 *** Dan9550 [~dan9550@49.248.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #openttd 12:21:27 <LordAro> quak 12:22:15 <Xaroth|Work> sup aro 12:22:29 <frosch123> hai 12:22:38 *** Hazzard_ [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 12:24:43 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:25:13 <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Really depends 12:25:29 <Flygon> If it's pre-1920, and you're using a steam loco set 12:25:35 <Flygon> SPAD is far easier to have happen 12:25:40 <Flygon> Given the era 12:28:06 <Pinkbeast> Flygon: Oh, indeed. What I'm really saying is in the ideal situation, SPAD events would be significant enough to have an incentive to reduce, but not a constant source of terrible irritation (just how one might like breakdowns to work), such that whether or not to buy locomotives with AWS (or redesign layouts) would be a real choice 12:28:27 <Flygon> Right, gotcha 12:28:40 <Flygon> Also, having a train stop completely due to breakdown's a bit annoying 12:28:45 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has joined #openttd 12:28:45 <Pinkbeast> If shunts at low relative speeds were "return to depot" not "train and all contents instantly destroyed" it would help matters 12:29:01 <Flygon> Just because, say, a MTMMTM EMU has one M carriage break down 12:29:05 *** Hazzard [~quassel@c-67-174-253-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:29:10 <Flygon> Doesn't mean the rest of the Ms can't tow it... 12:29:16 <Flygon> Ditto multiloco sets 12:29:22 <Pinkbeast> Flygon: That's one reason this SPAD thing is a bit far-fetched, it'd be nice to fix breakdowns _first_ and make reliability meaningful 12:29:54 * Flygon nodod 12:29:56 <Pinkbeast> But the canteen closes in 15 minutes so I'm off 12:29:56 <Flygon> nodnod* 12:30:00 <Samu> how can i give feedback about a music set? 12:30:00 <Flygon> Have fun! 12:30:15 <Samu> modern motion 12:30:54 <Samu> the song Modern Problems is too loud/pitchy 12:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> happy "day of the work" (where nobody works) everybody. 12:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Samu> there's one or two tracks that are too loud in relation to others <-- report it at the forum thread 12:33:04 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 12:33:24 <Samu> oh, the forum, orudge got my account locked 12:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly not my fault 12:33:54 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:35:10 <Samu> can't double click on a song name to start playing it? 12:35:17 <Samu> from the list 12:35:18 <Samu> t.t 12:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't used the jukebox in ages 12:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> double click might have been add/remove 12:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like in the newgrf setup 12:36:12 <Samu> It's still named Jazz jukebox, but what im listening is not jazz 12:36:19 <Samu> just name it Jukebox 12:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> make a feature request 12:37:18 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 12:38:09 <Wolf01> hello 12:38:36 <Samu> okay, im listening to the whole set first 12:38:56 <Samu> need to point out those few songs I believe aren't volume tuned with the others 12:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: keep in mind that the jukebox is older than most music players you have ever used 12:48:33 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-89-176-82-80.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 12:55:36 <Rubidium> also keep in mind that it's named after the original music that was to be played in there, not some recently created set of music 12:55:47 <Rubidium> s/created/gathered/ 12:56:35 <Samu> it's fine then 12:57:24 <Samu> I'm not sure why but the song Hot Pink is tiresome to hear, do you guys tried to listen the whole set? 12:58:01 <Samu> the song is fine, but a bit repetitive 13:01:50 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 13:13:32 <Samu> are you guys able to adjust midi volume for an entire song? Like, edit it, increase overall volume and save it again? 13:13:51 <Samu> increase or decrease, depending on needs 13:14:19 <Samu> City of Energy is an example of one that needs the volume up a bit 13:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly an easy task, but you should talk to the person that uploaded it 13:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't used a midi editor in ages 13:15:58 <planetmaker> samu, you *asked* for your account being locked 13:16:03 <planetmaker> litterally 13:16:05 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 13:16:10 <Samu> I did 13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i have never listened to the alternate music sets 13:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and the original music maybe twice in the past 15 years 13:17:52 <Samu> I'm too scared to return and become too negative on the forums again 13:18:00 <Samu> don't know if it's ok to return 13:19:26 <supermop> i liked the tto main menu song 13:19:28 <supermop> a lot 13:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i did, too. but the same music over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ... 13:29:26 <Samu> http://wiki.openttd.org/Modern_Motion_Music_Pack 13:29:41 <Samu> oh :( 13:29:43 <Samu> no text 13:30:47 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:35:29 <Samu> 10 more songs to listen 13:35:47 <Samu> i've been listening them for a week, i just don't know their names 13:40:39 *** Brumi_ [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 13:47:39 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:49:00 *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po2-84-90-120-62.netvisao.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:53:22 *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po2-84-90-120-62.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd 14:03:52 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-173-77.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: supermop] 14:05:08 <Samu> intresting... 14:05:09 <Samu> http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Audio-Editors-Recorders/MIDI-Normalizer.shtml 14:06:17 <Samu> hopefully I could fix the volume issue of the midis, then give them to one who knows how to pack them back into the set 14:09:43 *** sylvieL [~sylvie@dslb-094-220-166-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:15:55 *** SylvieLorxu [~sylvie@dslb-188-109-217-213.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:19:54 <frosch123> using an unfamilar vcs can give you so much wtf 14:20:20 <frosch123> (bazaar in this case) 14:21:21 <LordAro> you poor person 14:22:12 <Xaroth|Work> no, that's just bazaar 14:23:53 <Samu> omg, the program really fixes volume even by channel choice, instrument choice 14:24:03 <Samu> i can pretty much remaster these midis 14:26:20 <Samu> funny thing, some songs aren't named how they're internally 14:27:10 <Samu> Green Hill is not Green Hill 14:27:15 <Samu> it's Green Hill Zone 14:27:51 <Samu> Techno1 is Drum1, I guess this is a generic untitled1 name 14:28:04 <Samu> they just let it be named Techno1 14:28:26 <Samu> not a true named song 14:28:54 <V453000> Samu: do you actually play openttd? because the amount of spam you manage to create is incredible :D 14:29:16 <Samu> yes 14:29:21 <Samu> i was trying to fix midis now 14:29:44 <V453000> im trying to fix industries now T_T 14:29:56 <frosch123> i am waiting for widelands to compile 14:31:09 <V453000> wtf is that 14:31:14 <V453000> does it have slugs? 14:31:32 <frosch123> not sure 14:31:37 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3043.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 14:31:40 <Samu> compare this one https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=23B29F3DE45F6F1F!601&authkey=!ACt-lL6Cg6GFQwM&ithint=file%2c.mid 14:31:47 <Samu> to the one that's on Motion Modern 14:32:04 <Samu> that one is processed with normalized volume (increased in this case) 14:33:29 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:33:31 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 14:34:20 <Samu> km_city_of_energy.mid 14:40:12 *** Brumi_ [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 14:48:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26546 /trunk/src (11 files) (2014-05-01 14:48:44 UTC) 14:48:51 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make order wait_time, travel_time and max_speed private 14:49:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26547 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:49:16 UTC) 14:49:23 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Collect order travel and wait times independent of timetables 14:49:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26548 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2014-05-01 14:49:44 UTC) 14:49:51 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: move updating of load_unload_ticks out of LoadUnloadVehicle 14:50:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26549 /trunk/src (8 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:50:52 UTC) 14:50:59 <DorpsGek> -Change: better estimation for link capacities during full load 14:53:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26550 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:53:06 UTC) 14:53:12 <DorpsGek> -Change: Show measured order times in timetable GUI 14:55:56 <Samu> about the MIDI Normalizer, the author says: "I hope you enjoy the software. And if you do, just let me know by e-mail, it will keep my "appetite" for developing this software alive." 14:56:05 <Samu> shall I email him? 14:56:17 <Samu> and invite him to OpenTTD, which uses MIDIs 14:56:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26551 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2014-05-01 14:56:33 UTC) 14:56:40 <DorpsGek> -Fix: document revision number for latest savegame version change 14:58:56 <Samu> Alain Besseleer 15:04:42 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd 15:04:45 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 15:34:38 *** retro|cz [~retro@ip-89-176-82-80.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:44:08 <Samu> anyone familiar with licenses or copyright? if I alter one of the midis instrument in a channel to another, or even mute it because it's too annoying, and I breaching anything? would you be able to re-pack the altered midis back and apply the same license? 15:44:20 <Samu> am I breaching* 15:44:55 <sylvieL> Samu: What license is it under? 15:45:09 <Samu> creative commons 15:45:20 <Pinkbeast> Which Creative Commons license? 15:45:21 <sylvieL> There are about 8 of those 15:45:26 <sylvieL> More precise, please? 15:45:45 <Samu> It is the modern motion music pack, dont really know this legal stuff 15:45:57 <sylvieL> Doesn't it display a full name? 15:46:05 <Pinkbeast> Samu: Well, it will say "CC-by-something" somewhere. What's "Something"? 15:46:10 <sylvieL> Creative Commons-Attribution-blah-blah 15:46:15 <Samu> Legal Code 15:46:27 <sylvieL> Not it :x 15:46:28 <Samu> Attribution-NonCommercial 15:46:30 *** sylvieL is now known as SylvieLorxu 15:46:36 <Samu> NoDerivs 15:46:41 *** TheMask96 [martijn@lust.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:46:42 <Samu> 3.0 15:46:44 <SylvieLorxu> Then you can't release edited versions 15:46:47 <Samu> Unported 15:46:50 <SylvieLorxu> No matter how small the edits 15:46:51 <Samu> ok 15:46:54 <Samu> :( 15:46:58 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host-92-24-25-152.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 15:47:48 <SylvieLorxu> The NoDerivs is the part that literally says "you can't release edited versions of this" 15:48:09 <SylvieLorxu> In fact, the only thing that license allows is freely share the original, it's the most restrictive Creative Commons license there is :P 15:48:10 <Samu> well, in that case, my work is complete! - no work to be done 15:48:37 *** TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 15:48:46 <SylvieLorxu> And this is why I feel NoDerivs (ND) is a stupid thing to use, nobody will be legally able to help you :P 15:49:16 <Pinkbeast> Samu: That said, you _might_ be able to release a patch in a carefully selected format. 15:49:38 <SylvieLorxu> (NonCommercial is also pretty stupid, because Commercial isn't properly defined. If you use it in a game and receive money, even by donations, is that commercial usage?) 15:50:04 <Pinkbeast> Ultimately that's up to the courts 15:50:39 <Alberth> SylvieLorxu: accepting help implies acknowledging you're not the best 15:50:50 <SylvieLorxu> It's a legal uncertainty, which is why I really recommend people to only use Free Culture-licensed works. For Creative Commons, that CC0, CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, no others 15:50:56 <Samu> I dont want to get myself in trouble, better not get involved 15:51:18 <SylvieLorxu> Alberth: Which is a pretty sad attitude :( 15:51:27 <Alberth> Samu: you can talk to the author 15:51:36 <Pinkbeast> legal uncertainty> well, pretty well any word in any license _could_ be subject to the interpretation of the court. 15:51:39 <SylvieLorxu> Nobody can do anything perfect, because nobody knows everything, and it's insane to assume you do 15:51:44 <Alberth> SylvieLorxu: i fully agree :) 15:51:52 <Pinkbeast> The CC license text does actually attempt to define commercial activity. 15:52:30 <SylvieLorxu> Pinkbeast: It attempts to, but leaves a lot unclear. Also, there are licenses that contain zero uncertainty, such as CC0 or WTFPL :P 15:53:12 <Alberth> SylvieLorxu: it's not assuming, it's intentionally ignoring the possibility in many cases, I think 15:53:20 <Pinkbeast> CC0 is uncertain in jurisdictions that don't have a public domain. 15:53:54 <SylvieLorxu> Pinkbeast: No, CC0 EXPLICITLY puts things into the public domain by granting you all rights possible, even if the country does not have a public domain 15:54:05 <Alberth> or even avoiding getting confronted with it 15:54:08 <SylvieLorxu> It removes the uncertainty of "public domain" 15:54:17 <SylvieLorxu> Alberth: Fair enough 15:54:24 <Samu> i did end up fixing one midi, and was about to work on the 2nd one, which is harder, was still learning how to use the editor 15:55:47 <Pinkbeast> Ah, yes, fair enough. I think the angle of attack on CC0 would be the Public License Fallback, section 3. 15:56:02 <SylvieLorxu> Let me re-read that 15:56:53 <Pinkbeast> Giving multiple people a non-exclusive but unconditional right to exercise the Affirmer's copyright... 15:58:30 <Pinkbeast> The angle on WTFPL would be that it is " 15:58:34 <Pinkbeast> Whoops, mispaste 15:59:07 <Pinkbeast> "TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION", ie does not pertain to attribution, ie I can come back later in places with explicit laws about attribution and sue. 15:59:25 <SylvieLorxu> Hmm, okay, I get your point that there is always some uncertainty 15:59:38 <Pinkbeast> CC0 is much better than I remembered, though. 16:00:38 <SylvieLorxu> Well, interesting discussion, at least, not sure what else to say 16:00:38 <Pinkbeast> I think the real thing is there's always some uncertainty because there's nothing to _stop_ the courts deciding what they like. You can do your best with language, but it's not like programming where you can say you got it right and the compiler was wrong. 16:00:53 <SylvieLorxu> True, true 16:01:03 <SylvieLorxu> Thanks for the insight 16:01:31 <Pinkbeast> ... and yes, I agree many of the CC licenses are quite annoying, especially NoDerivs :-) 16:02:38 <SylvieLorxu> NoDerivs is really the worst one in my view. I see it used a lot in music, saddens me because I do sometimes hear remixes better than the original, and yeah... 16:02:44 <SylvieLorxu> Those can't legally exist then :( 16:03:42 <Pinkbeast> Aha. I mentioned patches because, having spoken to m'learned friends, it seems unlikely that a patch that includes no material from the original directly would be derivative. 16:04:27 <Pinkbeast> ... this is how "no modified versions" stuff like Pine used to get into Debian, by applying a patch locally and compiling it on the user's machine. 16:05:03 <Samu> I am opening the original, apply some volume changes and save. Some volume changes can be set to 0, essentially I'm muting an instrument totally from the midi 16:05:10 <Pinkbeast> So potentially, convert MIDI to text file, generate patch (in non-context format), distribute patch. Up to the users what they do. 16:05:26 <SylvieLorxu> Fair enough. There are OSI and FSF-approved licenses which only allow patches, and NoDerivs is probably the same 16:05:26 <Samu> you'd need to ship both? 16:05:41 <SylvieLorxu> Samu: Yeah, the original and your change, but NOT a changed original 16:05:43 <Samu> ship=pack 16:05:58 <SylvieLorxu> You can provide an utility to patch the originals 16:06:05 <SylvieLorxu> But you may not distribute them in a patched way 16:06:14 <SylvieLorxu> And this is all unnecessarily complicated :( 16:06:16 <Pinkbeast> Samu: No, you'd provide them separately with instructions on how to (perhaps a script to automatically) combine them. Tedious, I know. 16:06:47 <Samu> well, no way then 16:06:51 <Pinkbeast> SylvieLorxu: I remember the extensive discussion in Debian about what patch-only stuff was going to be allowed to meet the DFSG, back when the DFSG was being written. :-/ 16:06:51 <Samu> i just started using the program 16:07:07 <SylvieLorxu> You're probably better of asking the original artist to use a more sane license 16:07:13 <Samu> it seems to run batches 16:08:09 <Pinkbeast> You might then be able to provide an input file to the program separately. 16:08:46 <SylvieLorxu> Better solution: write your own songs and release them under a cool license like CC0/CC-BY/CC-BY-SA :D 16:08:53 <Samu> also I am basing this volume thing on the default midi device windows provides 16:09:00 <Samu> could end up bad on some other OS 16:14:45 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host-92-24-25-152.ppp.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 16:28:44 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host-92-24-25-152.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzzâŠ] 16:32:47 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck 16:33:15 *** Phreeze [~p@vodsl-11053.vo.lu] has joined #openttd 16:58:58 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd 17:06:38 *** Pereba [~UserNick@177.40.220.185] has joined #openttd 17:08:52 *** Dan9550 [~dan9550@49.248.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remind me which partition i usually put my root backup on? 17:11:13 <Phreeze> -> /dev/null ? 17:12:07 <__ln___> /dev/fd0 17:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is i got totally mixed up since /dev/mapper/sdXY does not match sdXY 17:12:28 <Phreeze> what the hell is mapper 17:12:50 <Pinkbeast> It's usually where lvm puts logical volumes 17:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> thing that maps logical or encrypted drives 17:14:01 <Pinkbeast> See also /dev/mdN is made of /dev/sdaM and /dev/sdbM where N !=M 17:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but that "/dev/mapper/sdXY" was not changed when i added drives, while the "sdXY" did 17:14:31 <frosch123> just check /proc/partitions 17:14:59 <Pinkbeast> Or blkid, or... but it's annoying when it happens 17:15:03 <frosch123> if that gives you too many candidates... maybe you should try with a new machine :p 17:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> 8 4 1 sda4 <-- "1 block" doesn't sound right 17:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well it currently goes to "sdh" 17:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so... now i got 3 partitions with roughly the same size that are candidates... 17:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which is which now?`:p 17:22:53 <Pinkbeast> Mount 'em and look? </captain-obvious> 17:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "they all look alike" 17:24:31 <frosch123> get a new machine with twice the disk size as all you existing disks, then copy them over: http://www.xkcd.com/1360/ 17:24:37 <frosch123> everyone does that 17:25:26 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:25:43 <frosch123> the number of nested backup folders will be the c14 method of future archaeologists 17:26:10 <frosch123> way more accurate than dates stored in the filesystem themself 17:45:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26552 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-05-01 17:45:32 UTC) 17:45:44 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:45 <DorpsGek> czech - 14 changes by djst 17:45:46 <DorpsGek> finnish - 1 changes by jpx_ 17:45:47 <DorpsGek> italian - 5 changes by lorenzodv 17:45:48 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 49 changes by Tucalipe 17:45:49 <DorpsGek> russian - 32 changes by Lone_Wolf 17:47:28 <Phreeze> watching Mad Max 17:47:36 <Phreeze> to prepare for wasteland grf xD 17:49:52 <Samu> i downloaded all grfs 17:50:32 <Samu> its taking 4,72 GB 17:50:43 *** DanMacK [~androirc@node-5596.tor.pppoe.execulink.com] has joined #openttd 17:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, my filesystem does look like that :p 17:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that's only going to get worse 17:51:29 <DanMacK> hey all 17:51:44 <Samu> wait, im wrong 17:51:54 <Samu> 2 screenshots were 3 GBs 17:52:12 <Samu> so it's 1,4 GB of downloaded content 17:53:12 <Phreeze> all grfs....i didnt, i did not want some, like grfs that only add 1 feature or 1 plane or so..useless for me 17:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i have 130MB in content_download and 250MB in data 17:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and 800MB in grf development stuff 17:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and 1.1GB in savegames 17:54:26 <Phreeze> 1.1GB savegames O_o i recently deleted all my old savegames 17:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well i have 6.6GB in openttd checkouts 17:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> my miniin checkout is 250MB and my trunk checkout is 800MB 18:00:07 *** Rapha [~Rapha@aftr-37-24-159-23.unity-media.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:00:27 <frosch123> yeah, what would be the point of miniin savegames without minin checkout 18:00:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you keep patching it, so it compiles? 18:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> not really 18:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried compiling some older things, but i don't think i tried with miniin 18:02:19 *** DanMacK [~androirc@node-5596.tor.pppoe.execulink.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02:20 *** DanMacK [~androirc@node-5596.tor.pppoe.execulink.com] has joined #openttd 18:02:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd 18:02:44 <andythenorth> o/ 18:05:41 <Samu> why's that aircraft don't depart when they're full loaded of mail? 18:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, seems i did try to compile and it worked :) 18:05:59 <Samu> trains depart 18:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: special rule that "full load" always applies to passengers 18:06:43 <Samu> oh, SH '125' goes out nearly empty, only the mail bags 18:06:47 <Samu> t.t 18:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. "someone" thought that it should only work this way for aircraft 18:08:10 <Samu> if i have a mixed train passengers and some other cargo, will it depart when passengers are loaded? 18:08:18 <Samu> passengers and valuables for example 18:08:30 <Samu> i wanted to focus on valuables 18:09:24 <Samu> let me try, brb 18:09:35 <andythenorth> I love the special rules 18:09:47 <Alberth> hi hi 18:09:53 <andythenorth> lo Alberth 18:10:06 <andythenorth> so when can we do consists? 18:10:11 <andythenorth> then we can declare them a BAD FEATURE 18:10:22 * peter1139 declares andythenorth a BAD FEATURE 18:10:37 <Alberth> we didn't implement andy yet :p 18:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1139: i'm pretty sure i did that already :p 18:11:08 <Samu> train is departing, full loaded passengers, nearly empty valuables, so confusing 18:11:27 <Alberth> "any cargo" really means any cargo :) 18:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: only airplanes are special 18:11:41 <Samu> aha, only airplanes 18:11:48 <Samu> ok, thanks 18:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't see any changes in MiniIN that would indicate a compile fix 18:12:23 *** Natio [~Natio@x1-6-e0-46-9a-98-35-7a.cpe.webspeed.dk] has joined #openttd 18:12:39 * andythenorth is mis-implemented 18:12:43 <Alberth> Samu: even then, aircraft focus on passengers, so it would work the same as your train in this case 18:12:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: maybe you are using a old os 18:13:04 <frosch123> but things start to stop compiling when you get never compilers and libraries 18:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: loads of warnings 18:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think it's easier with C instead of C++ 18:14:14 <Samu> refiting ratio of aircraft to mail is 1:1, shouldn't it be 1:2? 18:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: my OS is about 2 years old, i think 18:14:57 <andythenorth> two suggestions, declare them BAD if you must. (1) make a new group from a vehicle window, or from the âvehicles sharing this orderâ window. (2) make a new group from âvehicles using this stationâ 18:15:11 *** DanMacK [~androirc@node-5596.tor.pppoe.execulink.com] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )] 18:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and i definitely changed architectures inbetween ;p 18:15:43 <frosch123> iirc some libpng was some issue somewhen 18:16:06 <andythenorth> groups are super useful, but a faff to add vehicles to 18:16:41 <Samu> is there a quick way to see the sized number of my trains without sending them to depots? 18:17:09 <frosch123> what number? 18:17:12 <andythenorth> no, but it would be useful 18:17:15 <andythenorth> he means length 18:17:20 <andythenorth> itâs an odd omission 18:17:23 <Samu> yes, length 18:17:45 <andythenorth> I sometimes have to send trains to depot to understand their length 18:17:56 <Natio> Do you mean how many squares they take up? 18:18:20 <Samu> yes 18:18:46 <Samu> i have a train sized 10 right now, but i had to send to depot to make sure 18:18:54 <Natio> Well, i usually count with 2 carts per square 18:19:10 <Natio> So if you have 1 locomotive + 9 carts = 5 squares :) 18:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have libpng 1.2.49 and 1.4.11, not sure which one is used 18:20:01 <Alberth> Natio: that only works with default vehicles and some newgrfs. Many newgrfs however use different length wagons and engines 18:20:35 <Natio> Ooh i had no clue. I havent got to toy around with the newgrf sets yet :) 18:20:35 <andythenorth> OS X Mavericks build absolutely chugs in windowed mode 18:20:41 <andythenorth> full screen is fine 18:20:45 <andythenorth> stupid Mavericks something 18:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 32bpp? 18:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: animated? 18:22:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the blitter? Or the use of newgrfs? 18:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> blitter 18:22:33 <andythenorth> how do I check? 18:22:41 <Samu> how do I check if I'm running 32 bpp 18:24:03 <Eddi|zuHause> -d driver=3 18:24:07 <Samu> I like to flip windows with start+tab, but with openttd in full screen it just doesn't work 18:24:19 <Samu> it works fine in window mode 18:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [driver] Successfully loaded blitter '32bpp-anim' 18:27:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: make run -d driver=3 -j13 ? 18:27:23 <Samu> it loaded some 8bpp blitter 18:27:23 <Samu> for me 18:27:23 <Samu> :( 18:27:34 <Samu> 8bpp-optimized 18:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need special arguments for "make run" 18:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> something along the lines of "OPENTTD_ARGS=<blah>", but that name is probably wrong 18:28:26 <andythenorth> Iâve omitted run 18:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need to pass this to ./openttd, not to make 18:28:57 <andythenorth> k 18:29:22 <andythenorth> dbg: [driver] Successfully loaded blitter '8bpp-optimized' 18:29:32 <andythenorth> dbg: [driver] Successfully probed blitter '32bpp-anim' is also present 18:29:59 <Samu> how many video drivers should the -h list? 18:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, "OPENTTD_ARGS" would even have been correct :p 18:30:21 <Samu> List of video drivers: 18:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: depends on your OS, for me it's "sdl", "dedicated" and "null" 18:30:49 <Samu> win32: Win32 GDI Video Driver , dedicated: Dedicated Video Driver 18:30:55 <Samu> and null 18:31:00 <Samu> what is dedicated? 18:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's for servers 18:31:25 <andythenorth> hmm, how to force 32bpp blitter? 18:31:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: use nightly 18:31:39 <andythenorth> ho 18:31:47 <andythenorth> canât test the cdist patch with that :) 18:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: -b 32bpp-optimized 18:31:54 <frosch123> nightly force 32bpp on all platforms by default, unless you find the secret config-only setting to enable 8bpp 18:32:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: wasn't that one committed? 18:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or: -b 32bpp-anim 18:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: you likely don't want to change the video driver anyway 18:33:09 <Samu> -b drv=32bpp-sse4-anim 18:33:19 <Samu> im gonna break my system 18:33:51 <Samu> didn't work 18:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: no "drv=" 18:34:01 <andythenorth> is it plausible that 32bpp-anim is more performant that 32bpp-optimized? 18:34:18 <andythenorth> specifically on map scroll 18:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there may be all sorts of weird effects. it's apple :p 18:35:25 <andythenorth> hard to measure, but definitely smoother scroll on the 32bpp-anim blitter 18:35:28 <Samu> what about the debug window? 18:35:30 <andythenorth> the 8bpp one is rubbish 18:35:59 <Samu> -b 32bpp-sse4-anim -d 18:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: -d opens the debug window 18:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you "convert" to a console application) 18:37:03 <Samu> yes, i wanted to make sure it's running with the blitter 18:37:28 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 18:38:02 <Samu> it opens a black window 18:38:14 <Samu> no text on it 18:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: well you left out the parameter for -d 18:39:43 <Samu> -b 32bpp-sse4-anim -d driver=3 18:39:44 <Samu> ? 18:39:47 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> is it weird that i like this parody even if i don't know the original? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKX0dlbjOwI 18:41:27 <Samu> it works! 18:41:45 <Samu> my cpu supports sse4 then? 18:42:11 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 18:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: was it listed in -h? 18:42:54 <Samu> yes 18:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> then yes 18:43:14 <Samu> much awesome 18:43:31 <Samu> good job AMD, you support Intel instructions 18:44:27 <TinoDidriksen> They cross-license almost everything. 18:44:39 <TinoDidriksen> Intel's 64bit arch is called AMD64. 18:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> because IA64 is dead 18:47:33 <Samu> is it possible to run the game in fullscreen (borderless windowed mode)? 18:47:52 <Xaroth|Work> those are two different terms 18:48:01 <frosch123> depends on your os as well 18:48:03 <Xaroth|Work> fullscreen != borderless window 18:48:33 <frosch123> check game options and see what it does 18:48:55 <Samu> it does fullscreen, it seems to be the real fullscreen, not a borderless window occupying the whole screen :( 18:49:22 <Samu> then again, it would only be able to use the desktop res.... 18:49:30 <Samu> guess it's a pointless request after all 18:50:50 <Samu> the game is so tiny in 1920x1080 18:51:45 <Samu> "blitter upscaling" - does such term exist? 18:51:52 <Xaroth|Work> you can zoom... 18:52:11 <Samu> i mean upscale the entire application 18:52:35 <frosch123> you can configure bigger fonts 18:52:38 <Samu> so that toolbars, icons and such are also scale 18:52:40 <frosch123> and you can use bigger gui sprites 18:52:42 <Samu> even text 18:53:08 <Samu> no, not exactly that 18:53:41 <Samu> I can upscale fine from 1280x720 to 1920x1080, the video driver is doing it fine, but that requires fullscreen 18:54:01 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 18:54:38 <Samu> in window mode, there's no upscale, it is using the desktop resolution which is already 1920x1080 18:55:11 <Samu> I wanted some way to upscale the entire OpenTTD window in window mode 18:55:16 <Xaroth|Work> as frosch123 said 18:55:25 <Xaroth|Work> zoom + font size adjustment + bigger gui sprites 18:56:01 <Samu> i'm sure it's not that what I'm looking for 18:56:20 <frosch123> but it's what exists :p 18:58:27 <andythenorth> I need much bigger ships :P 18:58:39 <andythenorth> which idiot made this stupid ship set so small? 18:58:52 <Xaroth|Work> you did 18:58:56 <frosch123> try redfish, saves you work? 19:03:03 <Samu> something like this: http://i.imgur.com/kg9moad.png 19:03:22 <Samu> that's what is zooming OpenTTD for me 19:03:41 <Samu> it's zooming 1280x720 to fit the whole 1920x1080, I see everything bigger 19:04:22 <Samu> and no black borders 19:04:32 <Samu> but that's only for full screen :( 19:04:46 <Samu> the lower the resolution I set in-game, the bigger I see 19:06:56 <Samu> if I don't enable image scaling, I get black borders in low resolutions 19:07:10 <Xaroth|Work> we know what you want 19:07:13 <Samu> and the tiny game in the middle 19:07:13 <Xaroth|Work> it's not in openttd 19:07:21 <Xaroth|Work> we gave you the closest possible method 19:07:27 <Samu> :) 19:07:29 <Xaroth|Work> so you can keep explaining, but the answer won't magically change :| 19:07:45 <Samu> oki, sorry 19:07:59 <Xaroth|Work> no need to be sorry 19:08:08 <Xaroth|Work> just trying to save you wasted energy :) 19:08:37 <frosch123> no need to save wasted energy 19:08:40 <frosch123> we have enough of that 19:15:25 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:31:04 *** DanMacK [~androirc@node-5596.tor.pppoe.execulink.com] has joined #openttd 19:35:24 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.164.39] has quit [] 19:43:11 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.164.39] has joined #openttd 19:44:28 <andythenorth> âGameScripts wanted, cash paid" 19:45:19 *** DanMacK [~androirc@node-5596.tor.pppoe.execulink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:45:41 <Alberth> what should it do? 19:45:45 <andythenorth> dunno 19:45:49 <andythenorth> it should amuse me 19:46:42 <Alberth> hmm, slightly ambiguous requirement :p 19:49:04 <andythenorth> he he 19:49:42 <Rubidium> Alberth: not as bad as the requirements from http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Psychic-Software.aspx ;) 19:52:59 <Alberth> lol 19:55:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: what would *you* want in a GS? o_O 19:56:31 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i528C3043.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 19:56:46 <Alberth> I like nocargoal, except it should do more calculations for me, I miss a prediction for the end result, an I am too lazy to compute it myself 19:57:18 <Alberth> and perhaps it should not stop after 3 goals, but just give me new ones instead 19:58:59 <Alberth> but perhaps they should be more specific 19:59:15 <Alberth> or it will run out of cargos to assign pretty quickly :p 19:59:35 <Alberth> you can only increase demands after that 20:00:45 <Alberth> or require a rate (X tonnes / month coal) 20:03:33 <andythenorth> I am +1 to NCG, but with more cargos, or a difficulty ladder or such 20:07:22 <Superuser> oh you are thinking of a different scoring system? 20:07:26 <Superuser> most excellent 20:07:37 <Superuser> I see that my complaining has paid off ^^ 20:07:53 <andythenorth> no 20:07:54 <frosch123> no, you are behind by 3 years 20:07:54 <andythenorth> and no 20:08:09 <andythenorth> what is scoring? 20:08:13 <andythenorth> I donât understand 20:09:52 <Superuser> is it really such an ignored aspect of the game...? 20:10:09 <Superuser> okay, my bad, perfroamcne rating 20:10:16 <Superuser> performance* 20:10:21 <Superuser> that's the official name 20:10:30 <Superuser> it determines your position in the league table 20:10:36 <Superuser> from which the winner of the game is drawn 20:11:11 <Superuser> however, the metrics used for this have serious problems and need a good rethinking, because they do not scale well to the end-game and constrict player choice 20:11:51 <andythenorth> theyâve been around since 1994, perhaps theyâre proven? 20:12:11 <andythenorth> 20 years worth of testing 20:12:28 <andythenorth> itâs quite audacious to declare them wrong 20:14:23 <Superuser> :: slams desk :: Call me audacious but :: speedy lines :: the mechanics are faulty! 20:14:47 <Superuser> I may write an extended post about them on the forum, we need to come up with new mechanics 20:15:01 <frosch123> i told you, you are behind by 3 years 20:15:13 <frosch123> if you refust to look up what game scripts are, we can only flame you 20:15:28 <Superuser> you can't just ship a broken game 20:15:43 <Superuser> you should strive to make the default game as good as possible, not rely on people to mod it... 20:15:46 <andythenorth> empirically we can 20:15:49 <andythenorth> and we do 20:15:54 <Alberth> commercial companies have been doing that forever 20:15:56 <Superuser> makes me think back to unpatched Morrowind 20:16:14 <Superuser> wouldn't you agree that Morrowind without patches was a terrible experience? 20:16:25 <frosch123> let's say, ottd is not for narrowminded people 20:16:36 <Alberth> Superuser: no idea, I never played that 20:16:44 <andythenorth> also there is no way we could change the scoring mechanism 20:16:55 <andythenorth> someone with an elaborate savegame would go nuts on the forum 20:16:59 <andythenorth> or even worse, here :P 20:17:04 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change 20:17:08 <Alberth> nor the can the default game be changed, I think 20:17:10 <Superuser> support both 20:17:29 <Superuser> as game scripts 20:17:45 <Superuser> I bet you I can come up with a better system, in fact I promise you that 20:17:55 <Superuser> you just wait and see :D 20:18:02 <andythenorth> no 20:18:16 <planetmaker> cool. Better system means a person submitting a patch queue and going through review 20:18:19 <Superuser> you will be very impressed and I'll make sure I link you to Superuser's superior competitive OTTD 20:18:26 <Superuser> I may even write a script for it 20:18:32 <andythenorth> no you have to use the version in game, not some mod based on an open architecture 20:18:41 <andythenorth> you canât rely on people to mod it 20:18:47 <Superuser> of course I won't 20:19:03 <Superuser> surely the current win conditions are implemented as a script right? 20:19:14 <andythenorth> no 20:19:24 <Superuser> ugh 20:19:33 <Superuser> that's bad design :( 20:19:34 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change 20:19:37 <andythenorth> no 20:19:42 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change 20:19:59 <Superuser> I take it that's your development philosophy...? 20:20:05 <Alberth> Superuser: in 1994 there were no scripts 20:20:35 <Superuser> I don't know, I think you'll have to cut support for the old TTD at some point if you wish to move the game forward 20:21:01 <Superuser> maintaining compatibility for that whole stack is surely quite taxing 20:21:12 <Superuser> hopefully this will be the first step ^^ 20:21:15 <andythenorth> we donât wish to move the game forward 20:21:19 <Superuser> now I need to take a month or so to think about this 20:21:22 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change 20:21:40 <Superuser> you say that until you see my proposition... that is all :) 20:21:57 <andythenorth> do you have a project manager? 20:22:43 *** oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 20:23:28 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.61.124] has joined #openttd 20:24:35 <andythenorth> hmm 20:24:52 <andythenorth> itâs very amusing that GS has nothing to do with high score table or the win conditions 20:25:26 <frosch123> noone considered it important enough 20:25:37 <frosch123> why would you bother with highscores if you can work in gameplay? 20:25:50 <andythenorth> well yes 20:26:07 <Superuser> wait a sex 20:26:12 <Superuser> sec* 20:26:24 <Superuser> so different win conditions would be... impossible? 20:26:31 <Superuser> in its current state, at least 20:27:02 <frosch123> @kban Superuser 86400 24 hours for you to look up game scripts 20:27:03 *** mode/#openttd [+b *!~superuser@2a02:e00:fffe:fbee::b5a2:2197] by DorpsGek 20:27:03 *** Superuser was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [24 hours for you to look up game scripts] 20:27:58 <planetmaker> :D 20:28:14 <andythenorth> oh he was such fun too 20:28:21 <andythenorth> Iâll have to go to bed now :( 20:30:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: your GS might beat me again :P 20:30:51 <Alberth> gn andy, and others too 20:31:10 <andythenorth> bye Alberth 20:31:14 *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd [] 20:32:04 <andythenorth> has nobody made the 2048 GS yet? 20:32:08 <andythenorth> should be easy, no? 20:32:53 <frosch123> everyone wanting that is busy playing 2048 20:32:58 <frosch123> it's an unsolvable problem 20:34:25 <Phreeze> it's a boring game 20:34:37 <Phreeze> it's like those picture shifting games from the 80s... 20:34:58 <frosch123> isn't the original shifting game from 1925 or something? 20:37:16 <andythenorth> patience is a boring game, but itâs still played a lot 20:41:52 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:42:58 *** Natio [~Natio@x1-6-e0-46-9a-98-35-7a.cpe.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:43:42 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@tor-exit.server6.tvdw.eu] has joined #openttd 20:44:39 *** Phreeze [~p@vodsl-11053.vo.lu] has quit [] 20:51:07 *** SylvieLorxu [~sylvie@dslb-094-220-166-148.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:51:17 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.61.124] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:51:29 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.61.124] has joined #openttd 20:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <Samu> is it possible to run the game in fullscreen (borderless windowed mode)? <- on useful OSes you could just right-click the window and say "remove frame" 20:53:06 *** glx [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 20:53:09 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 20:57:56 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 20:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <Phreeze> it's like those picture shifting games from the 80s... <-- i had an interesting shifting game once, it had blocks of 1x1, 1x2, 2x1 and 2x2, and you had to get the 2x2 block from one corner to the opposite one 20:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the empty space was 2x1 20:59:58 <frosch123> 4 times 1x1, 4 times 1x2, 1 time 2x1, 1 time 2x2 iirc 21:01:34 <frosch123> anyway there is a whole family of thsoe 21:02:13 <frosch123> "klotski" is even part of standard kde4 21:02:25 <frosch123> with various dozen of those 21:02:39 *** DanMacK [~androirc@24.114.61.124] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:02:50 <frosch123> oh, it's part of gnome games 21:02:56 <frosch123> why does it start with k then? 21:03:38 <peter1139> Because that's the name of the game? 21:08:09 <Samu> benfica > juventus, 2-1 aggregate 21:13:01 <planetmaker> hm... http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3344#comic :) 21:20:32 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 21:20:59 *** DanMacK [~0a0a6574@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 21:21:06 <DanMacK> Hey all 21:32:22 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-169-2-218.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #openttd 21:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the funniest thing about 2048 is how it says "you won" and then the actual game starts :) 21:35:38 <frosch123> parallels to ottd? 21:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen that part of openttd 21:46:13 *** heffer [felix@hyperion.fk.cx] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:01:30 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:16:34 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-5f74267f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn] 22:17:22 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd 22:18:23 <peter1139> I guess Eddi|zuHause manages, with German precision, to reach 2048 every single time with no effort. 22:18:24 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host-92-24-25-152.ppp.as43234.net] has joined #openttd 22:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> almost every time, at least 22:28:27 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:28:27 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:30:49 *** Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:30:51 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:01 *** Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:36:15 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@95.76.164.39] has quit [] 22:53:27 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 22:53:30 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 22:54:19 <Wolf01> 'night all 22:54:32 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:59:31 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-16-141.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:07:31 *** yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:10:09 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:10:22 <Aristide> Ahaha 23:10:50 <Aristide> Navitia is open source now x) 23:11:04 <Aristide> (Navitia is used on TCL website for calculate path) 23:12:36 *** lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@8JQAAIQPN.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: gone] 23:17:54 *** KillerByte [~quassel@c-67-160-166-115.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:22:48 *** supermop [~daniel_er@d110-33-173-77.sun801.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 23:33:49 *** Haube [~michi@37-4-140-125-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:36:05 <DanMacK> Hey supermop 23:37:10 *** montalvo [~montalvo@host-92-24-25-152.ppp.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:38:48 *** Samu [~oftc-webi@po2-84-90-120-62.netvisao.pt] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:39:56 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [] 23:43:09 *** ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-169-2-218.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:43:54 *** LSky [~LSky@5ED4B2EA.cm-7-5c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:45:22 *** jrambo [~jrambo@77-46-208-101.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:45:46 *** jrambo [~jrambo@77-46-208-101.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has joined #openttd 23:45:51 *** DanMacK [~0a0a6574@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:49:58 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-74-73-132-105.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd