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Log for #openttd on 19th September 2015:
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00:19:37  <Flygon> Eddi|zuHause: The 'problem' is, is that it sounds like an extremely generic, near knock-offy term
00:19:52  <Flygon> This is why most English inclined companies try to use more 'special' terms
00:44:37  <Sylf> Don't expect Japanese to have a sense of good English.
00:44:53  <Sylf> A bunch of English words mushed together = cool.
00:49:35  <Flygon> Well, more to the fact
00:49:41  <Flygon> Having English at all is trendy
00:49:47  <Flygon> And also note, they have a few other quirks too
00:50:10  <Flygon> Such as the letter W being adopted to mean twice/double/two-for-the-price-of-one in advertising material
00:51:02  <Flygon> But, yeah
00:51:15  <Flygon> This is why if something is named in English, it'll be either very formal, or very unique
00:52:14  <Flygon> eg. VLocity, XPT, other... uhm, such names. My non-AU knowledge is pretty barren, for the unique end
00:52:30  <Flygon> Whereas N-Class, H-set, all that sort of classification is pretty formal
00:53:13  <Flygon> Whereas terms like "Sprinter" are widely used worldwide for the same sort of unit (as in, same type of use. Shorter distance shuttles between x and y, and the units designed specifically to do them) are an odd mix of unique and formal...
00:53:17  <Flygon> There's a lot to language
00:53:19  <Flygon> You just never notice it
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06:55:20  <Alberth> moin
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09:01:54  <TrueBrain> okay ... going to do the big reinstall ..
09:02:03  <TrueBrain> IPv6 to openttd.org will be unavailable for ~3 hours
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09:17:34  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS web-interface upload thingy works again
09:17:36  <TrueBrain> just as a general FYI
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09:36:46  <andythenorth_> o/
09:40:32  <TrueBrain> hello andy :)
09:40:37  <TrueBrain> you have a weird _ following you
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09:43:31  <Wolf01> o/
09:43:37  <TrueBrain> hello mister WOlf
09:43:39  <TrueBrain> Wolf
09:43:40  <TrueBrain> typing hard
09:44:26  <Alberth> moin
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09:49:14  <andythenorth_> Phone irc
09:49:21  <andythenorth_> Not good
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10:17:21  <TrueBrain> wb
10:19:23  <TrueBrain> well, that was only an hour and 15 minutes
10:19:26  <TrueBrain> not bad
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10:28:37  <TrueBrain> going to interrupt all IP connections to openttd.org again, to migrate things back a bit
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11:06:18  <planetmaker> hi ho
11:07:14  <Alberth> o/
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12:38:45  <Pikka> uhoh
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12:39:31  <andythenorth> bedtime for pikkas
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12:42:06  <andythenorth> but uptime for frogs
12:42:55  <frosch123> hola
12:43:00  <Wolf01> o/
12:44:41  <planetmaker> hola
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13:03:59  <andythenorth> hrm
13:04:08  <andythenorth> Squid is silly
13:05:51  <andythenorth> not enough ships
13:09:18  <planetmaker> someone was quite adamant that FISH2 should not have too many ;)
13:18:25  <Alberth> someone also changes opinion quite frequently :)
13:25:18  <andythenorth> someone play tests
13:25:32  <andythenorth> the ‘problem’ is that big boats must be speed limited on rivers/canals
13:25:40  <andythenorth> so I need to add some big boats that aren’t
13:25:56  <andythenorth> or a better solution? o_O
13:30:13  <andythenorth> ha ha canal/river speed is probably just a misfeature, right? :)
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13:38:11  <Alberth> not sure, the idea of having river boats is nice
13:38:36  <Alberth> makes no sense to cross the ocean in a small row boat
13:39:03  <Alberth> how exactly is slower speed of big boats in a canal a problem?
13:40:20  <Alberth> having ocean steamers on a river makes just as little sense as a row boat at the ocean, imho
13:42:41  <Alberth> an alternative can be to add a toggle, and when enabled, drop 1/2 the boats, and make them have the same speed everywhere
13:43:05  <Alberth> ie drop the distinction between ocean boats and river boats
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13:49:16  <andythenorth> Alberth: do you ever use canals?  Or just lower land to 0 o_O
13:49:41  <Alberth> usually I use canals
13:51:09  <Alberth> but most ships stay at sea
13:51:54  <Alberth> either doing pax with towns at the coast, or shipping cargo to a transfer station
13:53:55  <andythenorth> I think the problem is, ship speed is already very low for ~all ships.  The canal penalty for large ships basically cripples them
13:54:02  <andythenorth> it’s not an interesting choice
13:56:41  <Alberth> it forces you to do a transfer at the shore, I think
13:57:45  <Alberth> you can of course give ocean ships less or no penalty than river ships
13:58:11  <Alberth> so ocean thingies can travel river but not vv
14:04:55  <andythenorth> the river ships have full speed on ocean currently
14:05:11  <andythenorth> because it’s rare to not have to cross some sea in a route
14:05:37  <andythenorth> a better way to state it, there are *no* river ships in Squid really
14:05:44  <andythenorth> just sea ships, and the big ones are slow on rivers
14:05:45  <andythenorth> :)
14:06:38  <andythenorth> and the rationale for the big ones being crippled on rivers is mostly just that they look bad
14:06:42  <andythenorth> especially when turning
14:06:50  <andythenorth> which might be BAD FEATURE
14:07:11  <Alberth> you need CEST trickery from eddi for ships :)
14:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it works that way :p
14:09:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you should just scale down all the ships.
14:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> don't try to solve problems that are effectively unsolvable
14:11:11  <andythenorth> scale down?
14:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> don't make huge ships, make medium sized ships
14:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause> like, use the current sprites as 2x zoom
14:12:36  <andythenorth> intriguing idea
14:12:42  <andythenorth> think it would fall into uncanny valley though
14:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> make new sprites at half size
14:13:30  <andythenorth> yeah that’s what I think would be weird
14:13:38  <andythenorth> there was a 2CC ship set that did that
14:14:17  <andythenorth> it has an odd side effect that the small ones would be almost invisible
14:15:45  <andythenorth> hmm
14:15:58  <andythenorth> I only use the canal speed fraction because the spec implies it should be used
14:18:18  * andythenorth removes it
14:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily justify half speed for larger ships
14:27:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't need to be 1/10 or something ridiculous
14:28:17  <Eddi|zuHause> have 3 ship sizes: large, medium, small
14:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> large ships have half speed on canals
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14:31:25  <andythenorth> where’s the cut off?  The current cut off is 200t, which is too low
14:31:34  <andythenorth> I wondered about 700t or so
14:31:52  <andythenorth> I have (deleted) river ships sprites, nothing went > 700t or so in game
14:32:22  <andythenorth> I am still dubious what it adds other than ‘realism'
14:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> a 7 tile train (12 wagons) with 40t per wagon is 480t
14:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so 500t+ for the large ship
14:33:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 3 tile train (5 wagons) is 200t, so medium ship
14:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> and 40t for small ship
14:36:29  <andythenorth> sizes I have, they’re fine for gameplay
14:36:37  <andythenorth> it’s the speed cut off that sucks :P
14:36:46  <andythenorth> also I should just dump the speed to 0 on canal
14:36:47  <andythenorth> :P
14:37:15  <andythenorth> who wants a 13mph ship?  It’s stupid
14:37:15  <Alberth> great way to get all ships very stuck :p
14:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i just said, half speed for anything above 500t
14:38:06  <andythenorth> currently the multiplier is 0.7
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14:38:12  <andythenorth> why is 0.5 the optimum? o_O
14:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it's noticeable, but not crippling
14:38:48  * andythenorth wonders, with a time machine, would it have been better to prevent routing on canal / river tiles entirely?
14:38:54  <andythenorth> instead of this dozey ‘realistic’ option
14:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> there are plenty of different choices
14:39:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but you shouldn't worry about any of them
14:40:15  <andythenorth> what is the upside of including this feature?
14:40:16  <Alberth> "realistic" is not a choice, it's trying to cover everything
14:40:18  <andythenorth> other than realism?
14:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a reason to not have the same model everywhere
14:41:23  <andythenorth> oh that’s already provided
14:41:36  <andythenorth> the ruling choice for ships is the amount you want to deliver in one shipment
14:41:46  <andythenorth> only capacity matters for ships, they’re very uninteresting
14:42:23  <andythenorth> very much the least interesting transport type in the game :)
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14:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i find aircraft way worse than ships...
14:44:09  <Alberth> yep, I never play with aircraft :)
14:44:52  <Eddi|zuHause> airport handling is so appalling that you never use anything but the largest aircraft, and then you still don't have enough capacity
14:45:31  <andythenorth> ships are the second least interesting transport type in the game :P
14:47:01  * andythenorth quite likes building helicopter routes :|
14:47:30  <Alberth> I build fewer RVs than ships :)
14:47:51  <andythenorth> that’s because you lack Road Hog :)
14:47:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i build trams a lot
14:47:55  <andythenorth> :P
14:48:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i like tra...ms
14:48:30  <andythenorth> when we (eventually, if I don’t die first) do the Euro roster in Road Hog
14:48:35  <andythenorth> you can propose the trams :P
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14:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the GermanRV has quite nice trams, but all in the wrong consists...
14:50:26  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it doesn't have a before-1920-mode
14:51:52  <andythenorth> RH goes to 1860 or so
14:51:59  <andythenorth> you wouldn’t get many vehicle choices mind
14:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> a new tram every 20 years or so
14:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> 1890,1910,1930,1950,1970,1990,2010
14:54:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and some horse tram before that
14:57:56  <andythenorth> 30 years seems to be about enough
14:58:03  <andythenorth> it’s hard to provide meaningful upgrades
14:58:40  <andythenorth> works in my current game anyway :P
15:00:35  <TrueBrain> Going to shut down openttd.org authentication for a few minutes, while I move a VM back to its rightful place
15:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i think 20 is more in line with real world models
15:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but there can easily be some overlap in trams. i sometimes use a different model in each city
15:03:03  <TrueBrain> all done
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15:03:17  <TrueBrain> now I am going to move the web proxy .. so say byebye to all your HTTP connections to openttd.org for a few :)
15:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it feels cold, but thermometer says 22°C
15:07:24  <TrueBrain> and all back on its feet again :)
15:11:53  <andythenorth> \o/
15:12:07  <andythenorth> right, ‘early’ trains in Iron Horse (pre-1860)
15:12:13  <TrueBrain> almost done with this migration stuff ... pfft
15:12:15  <TrueBrain> really happy when it is done
15:12:22  <andythenorth> make them hideable on a parameter?  Or just force players to use the ‘hide’ button in game?
15:15:19  <frosch123> in the later years you can just introduce vehicles with same stats, but cooler names
15:16:39  <andythenorth> “Supertram II”
15:16:45  <andythenorth> “Supertram III"
15:16:49  <andythenorth> “iSupertram"
15:17:22  <Alberth> eSupertram
15:17:25  <frosch123> Core Tram7
15:17:45  <frosch123> always use odd numbers
15:17:46  <Alberth> Cloud tram
15:17:48  <frosch123> even numbers are boring
15:18:15  <Alberth> yep, we'll skip 2016 entirely
15:19:23  <andythenorth> Hypertram
15:19:36  <Alberth> +1
15:20:29  <Alberth> EcoTram
15:20:39  <sim-al2> Super MegaTram 9000?
15:20:54  <frosch123> Tramzor 5M
15:21:14  <frosch123> Andy 447
15:21:46  <Alberth> enough for 260 years already :)
15:25:48  <andythenorth> HybridTram
15:25:54  <andythenorth> TurboTram
15:26:12  <andythenorth> easy
15:26:22  <andythenorth> probably change the colour every time :P
15:26:31  <andythenorth> ‘Rose’, ‘Gold’, ‘Space Grey'
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15:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> make them hideable on a parameter?  Or just force players to use the ‘hide’ button in game? <-- assume 99% of people use expiring vehicles
15:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you really want non-expiring vehicles, then start with disabled, and enable it after game start
15:41:10  <Eddi|zuHause> then the old vehicles stay expired, but new ones will continue to be available
15:43:41  <andythenorth> parameter seems overkill
15:53:56  <andythenorth> thanks
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16:29:35  <glx> hello
16:41:24  <TrueBrain> bugs.openttd.org will be unavailable for ~10 minutes
16:46:47  <TrueBrain> its back
16:46:54  <TrueBrain> wiki.openttd.org will be unavailable for ~10 minutes
16:52:11  <TrueBrain> its back
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17:03:01  <andythenorth> so what speed fraction should this ship have?  https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/7481/ship_speed.png
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17:08:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r27400 /trunk/src/network (3 files) (2015-09-19 18:49:46 +0200 )
17:08:16  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6368] (r26449): when a dedicated server was paused with no clients the tick length was increased significantly, making any assumptions about the tick length used further down in the code are not true anymore. One of such assumptions was that one should readvertise every 15 minutes worth of original ticks, but due to the lengthening this timeframe would be more like 45-60 minutes. Now (1 more message)
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17:45:26  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27401 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2015-09-19 19:45:17 +0200 )
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> frisian - 2 changes by BAJansen
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 8 changes by hafting
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
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18:16:10  <andythenorth> hmm
18:16:17  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
18:16:17  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 1 hour, 23 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: * DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
18:17:22  * andythenorth wonders if ‘early’ trains should have a specific railtype
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19:00:34  * fonsinchen suspects the demands algorithm wastes a lot of CPU time distributing demand in meaninglessly small chunks
19:03:38  <andythenorth> o_O
19:03:54  <andythenorth> I wonder how significant demand is at all
19:04:10  <andythenorth> as a feature
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