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Log for #openttd on 6th February 2017:
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00:43:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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07:57:15  <V453000> yeah I realized it at night when sleeping Eddi :D was missing alpha there
07:57:26  <V453000> so it's cr, cg, cb, ca
07:57:31  <V453000> :) now it runs
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09:07:18  <Wolf01> o/
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10:31:07  <V453000> mornyn
10:31:31  <V453000> so with Alberth's optimizations and on work CPU, I got from 90 minutes to 10 minutes :D :D :D
10:32:05  <V453000> didn't even try to use the better pixel picker functions yet
10:32:10  <V453000> or PyCUDA shiz
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10:40:25  <V453000> best part is, I actually feel like the 32bpp looks uglier than the converted 8bpp XD
10:40:30  <V453000> which is just insane
10:43:50  <dihedral> hello
10:45:22  <V453000> yo
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12:48:37  <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aRmgR12_460s.jpg lol'd
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19:28:50  <andythenorth> o/
19:31:19  <Alberth> o/
19:31:34  <frosch123> moo
19:35:50  <Wolf01> o/
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19:47:17  <andythenorth> wow
19:47:21  <andythenorth> lots of activity :)
19:47:39  <Alberth> :)
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19:52:21  <LordAro> "activity" == "oftc asplode"
19:53:16  <Wolf01> Wtf... is impossible to connect to a rcon server via putty
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19:59:05  <Wolf01> Bah, they even want money for the dedicated client
20:04:09  <andythenorth> how would it be if we had a bleeding edge, ‘things will break’ ottd fork?
20:04:18  <andythenorth> like a patchpack?  Or like something else?
20:04:34  <Wolf01> Isn't that trunk?
20:04:50  <andythenorth> nah, trunk there is some real effort put into stability, imho
20:06:02  <andythenorth> relative to team size and general open source attitudes, engineering standards are quite high for ottd
20:07:16  <frosch123> we already have plenty of patchpacks
20:08:17  <andythenorth> patchpack’s have low social capital
20:08:21  <andythenorth> patchpacks *
20:08:41  <andythenorth> unless I’m wrong, and your talking to JGR and Chill and co in back channels :)
20:09:55  <frosch123> chill was here, but only when his pack was history
20:10:40  <frosch123> anyway, patchpacks are not much about talking about code
20:17:32  <Milek7> i don't think there will be ever any new feature in trunk
20:17:54  <andythenorth> I am quite interested in future direction
20:18:09  <andythenorth> one option would be to change approach, and try to attract in new contributors
20:18:28  <andythenorth> another would be to accept it’s mature software, and focus on code quality issues
20:18:42  <andythenorth> or there might be other routes
20:18:44  <Milek7> and bugtracker is basically black hole
20:19:15  <andythenorth> being open source, what will be is what will be, despite any plans or ambitions
20:19:24  <andythenorth> if nobody’s motivated, no work will be done
20:19:39  <andythenorth> but then again, motivation is malleable
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20:20:47  <Milek7> and even bugs aren't fixed
20:20:55  <andythenorth> e.g. although it should strictly be dying completely, Plone actually keeps renewing itself on community + releases https://plone.org/
20:21:39  <Milek7> it seems that current project goal is to make sure it works on new systems/compilers without touching anything
20:22:39  <frosch123> that is not the current goal, that has always been the goal
20:22:46  <frosch123> +just
20:25:02  <andythenorth> I’m curious how we could attract people to work on longevity issues
20:25:03  <Milek7> https://www.openttd.org/en/about
20:25:08  <andythenorth> like SDL 2 or OpenGL or so
20:25:12  <frosch123> the only option to extend the game is to provide add-on interfaces, since no two people would agree on a particular feature
20:25:20  <andythenorth> how is that kind of work interesting to someone?
20:25:27  <Milek7> >It attempts to mimic the original game as closely as possible while extending it with new features.
20:25:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: it becomes interesting when you are affected yourself :)
20:25:44  <andythenorth> scratch own itch :P
20:26:36  <frosch123> people still port it to weird devices, the necessity for sdl2 is just not big enough yet
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20:27:02  <andythenorth> I wonder about infrastructure
20:27:19  <andythenorth> stuff like code reviews, pull requests, have high impedance
20:27:57  <andythenorth> devzone borderline scares me, as it relies on spike’s goodwill to make it work
20:28:46  <frosch123> on devzone all repositories are decentral
20:28:48  <andythenorth> I have been quiet about the idea of moving, because I don’t want to seem like I am knifing devzone
20:28:59  <frosch123> what stops you to go back compiling and uploading stuff manually tomorrow?
20:29:18  <andythenorth> nothing, except I rely on devzone as backup strategy
20:29:25  <andythenorth> i.e. my SSD could die any time
20:29:29  <frosch123> where would you move to?
20:29:41  <frosch123> i mean repository is the least important feature devzone offers
20:29:44  <andythenorth> yes
20:29:53  <frosch123> and i would not know where you would get equivalent stuff like farm and eints
20:30:10  <andythenorth> I have been reluctant to say github, because it will look like a choice about vcs flavour
20:30:18  <andythenorth> and I couldn’t find reliable free hosted mercurial
20:30:28  <andythenorth> bitbucket used to have it, but I can’t find it any more
20:30:53  <frosch123> still, the repository hosting is the least complex thing about devzone (i believe)
20:33:20  <andythenorth> plausible
20:36:59  <andythenorth> frosch123: is there a list of infrastructure anywhere? O_O
20:37:11  * andythenorth was trying to count on fingers, but ran out :)
20:37:13  <frosch123> on devzone or on ottd?
20:37:23  <andythenorth> both :)
20:42:55  <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pc8ux64xd <- i count those
20:44:16  <frosch123> probably missing dozen of small things :)
20:44:38  <andythenorth> newgrf wiki?
20:44:48  <frosch123> that is forums
20:45:05  <frosch123> there are 3 pillars :)
20:45:13  <andythenorth> I did a sanity check: is forums money-raising slower this year?
20:45:21  <andythenorth> by my calculation, it’s actually looking faster
20:45:29  <frosch123> in some year it took till august iirc
20:45:33  <andythenorth> it’s pretty unscientific though, orudge` might know better :)
20:46:02  <andythenorth> I started reading the ottd subreddit a few weeks ago
20:46:09  <andythenorth> it’s not as toxic or mad as I assumed
20:46:23  * andythenorth has a very jaded view of reddit, based mostly on secondhand info
20:46:35  <frosch123> there are only very few people there :)
20:46:45  <andythenorth> probably not a fourth pillar then :)
20:49:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: also, in past years ottd paid like 1/3 of the forums
20:50:16  <andythenorth> really? :)
20:51:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=960996#p960996 <- in 2011 it took till july
20:51:51  <andythenorth> 2016 took quite some time
20:52:07  <frosch123> 2012-2015 or so, ottd paid a fair share, due to superfluous money
20:52:40  <andythenorth> orudge said traffic is down, but I wonder how actual ottd play is trending?
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20:53:48  <frosch123> no idea, we used to have a statistics page, but it broken for some time :)
20:54:16  <andythenorth> ha
20:54:27  <andythenorth> eh, while I was looking for Dalestan flames
20:54:34  <andythenorth> I read quite a few old threads
20:54:40  <__ln__> 22:04 < andythenorth> how would it be if we had a bleeding edge, ‘things will break’ ottd fork?   <--- indeed a fork where the doctrine of maintaining compatibility with old savegames forever was dropped would attract new contributions
20:54:43  <andythenorth> the golden age in the past, wasn’t quite so golden
20:55:02  <andythenorth> lots of drama about relatively insignificant things
20:55:23  <frosch123> oh yes, the forums are definitely a nicer place these times
20:55:35  <andythenorth> less interesting though eh :)
20:55:45  <andythenorth> nobody is learning much about open source or engineering
20:55:47  <andythenorth> even here is nice
20:55:59  <andythenorth> first time I came in here I got trounced by fonso for asking dumb questions about cdist
20:56:56  <andythenorth> now we’re polite :P
20:57:31  <supermop> for any openttd related topics
21:00:23  <andythenorth> __ln__: how do you know that would attract contributors? o_O
21:04:38  <orudge`> andythenorth: It would appear to be a bit faster this year, but there have been a couple of larger donations. Traffic is down a little in terms of number of hits, but in terms of bandwidth is as high as it's ever been - lots more large files and so on I guess :)
21:04:54  <andythenorth> interesting thanks :)
21:05:04  <supermop> sounds like v's fault
21:05:05  <__ln__> andythenorth: i can foresee the future.
21:05:51  <andythenorth> neat
21:06:00  <andythenorth> super useful also
21:06:00  <Wolf01> :D
21:06:23  <__ln__> indeed. i just don't use the skill for gambling because it would be immoral.
21:06:42  <andythenorth> should I rebuild the openttd website? o_O
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21:08:28  <frosch123> someone (tm) wanted to rebuild the bananas website
21:08:38  <frosch123> another (tm) wanted to rebuild the compile farm :)
21:09:08  <frosch123> the master server is pure legacy, but it works
21:09:14  <andythenorth> $someone has a habit of starting too many projects
21:10:15  <__ln__> how many jigobytes of traffic per month is there on the forums?
21:10:39  <V453000> a factorio mofo convinced me  to use some CIE colour wtf shit :D
21:10:42  <V453000> venturing forth
21:10:55  <andythenorth> V453000: can you make sense plz :)
21:10:59  <andythenorth> what did you say?
21:11:05  <V453000> CIE
21:11:12  <andythenorth> Irish Railways?
21:11:12  <V453000> is some math shit for comparing colours
21:11:14  <andythenorth> ha
21:11:23  <V453000> more speficically CIEDE2000
21:11:32  <frosch123> i always do hsv, is cie similar?
21:11:35  <V453000> http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~gsharma/ciede2000/ciede2000noteCRNA.pdf
21:11:38  <andythenorth> neat
21:11:46  <V453000> he says that this is way better frosch123
21:11:52  <V453000> but other guy was suggesting HSV too
21:11:56  <andythenorth> that is cool
21:12:03  <V453000> problem is I have to convert image to LAB first, and then use this
21:12:13  <V453000> there are many versions of CIE conversions but this one is said to be ok
21:12:20  <V453000> BUT
21:12:31  <V453000> even with my current converter it's giving pretty good results
21:12:39  <andythenorth> V453000 has stopped pretending he has a swear filter
21:12:48  <andythenorth> my 7 year old reads this channel over my shoulder :P
21:12:55  <andythenorth> I have to scroll quick when v is here :)
21:13:18  <V453000> in fact, in many of the cases I like the 8bpp converted image so much that I am even considering leaving 32bpp out XD
21:13:24  <V453000> just the EZ is good enough
21:13:45  <V453000> let's see what the CIE thing does
21:14:08  <andythenorth> ach
21:14:14  * andythenorth off on a tangent
21:14:24  <V453000> another minor idea I was told is to use the current, but convert the colours to linear space
21:14:33  <V453000> whatever that means, just ^2 some things
21:14:47  <andythenorth> thing is, we could just make some bolder statements about OpenTTD
21:15:03  <andythenorth> compare http://getbootstrap.com/ to https://www.openttd.org/
21:15:05  <V453000> <b> ?
21:15:20  <V453000> xd omfg
21:15:23  <andythenorth> we could just say fuck it, it’s retro, it’s pixels, and it’s not super-realism
21:15:41  <andythenorth> also it’s open source, it’s open for contributions, and it works on bazillions of platforms
21:15:43  <V453000> XD
21:16:04  <andythenorth> we could also say, it’s pretty much the most successful open source game, ever
21:16:06  <andythenorth> as far as we know
21:16:17  <V453000> quite likely yeah
21:18:18  <andythenorth> could say there’s stable releases for multiplayer reliability, which get 1 or 2 features a year, and lots of translation updates
21:18:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: battle for wesnoth is more popular :)
21:19:12  <andythenorth> the art of this kind of marketing is not to look for evidence :)
21:19:25  <andythenorth> BoW is not more popular with me :P
21:19:49  <andythenorth> probably other things like Rigs of Rods and similar too
21:19:50  <andythenorth> but eh
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21:20:24  <frosch123> V453000: i guess the problem with hsv is that it has this huge arc of blue and a very small arc of red-orange-yellow-green
21:20:42  <V453000> honestly I didn't do super research
21:21:05  <V453000> but my evenly-distributed-cube works fine-ish, just want to give a shot to the CIEDE2000 to see how much better can it get
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21:22:16  <andythenorth> V453000: pictures? o_O
21:22:30  <V453000> sec
21:22:46  <V453000> not sure if haz atm
21:22:48  <V453000> but will check
21:23:05  <V453000> haz
21:23:06  <V453000> need to crop
21:25:05  <V453000> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/BRIDGES__8bpp_converter-v7.png
21:25:50  <V453000> special attention to the edges :)
21:25:52  <andythenorth> left and right are?
21:25:59  <V453000> can't you tell? :D
21:26:15  <andythenorth> I can assume :)
21:26:21  <andythenorth> but assume makes ass out of me :P
21:26:21  <V453000> well left is 32bpp
21:26:33  <V453000> right is after conversion
21:26:38  * andythenorth assumed correct
21:26:46  <andythenorth> honestly I prefer right
21:26:54  <andythenorth> I grew up with jaggy game art
21:26:59  <andythenorth> I distrust smooth game art
21:27:07  <V453000> it looks nicer to me as well
21:27:18  <V453000> in some cases it's a bit e
21:27:19  <V453000> eh
21:27:20  <andythenorth> basic uncanny valley issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
21:27:22  <V453000> but will see
21:27:34  <frosch123> yeah, the edges are meh
21:27:47  <andythenorth> edges are meh on white
21:27:55  <V453000> :D
21:27:56  <andythenorth> put it over actual background, you might find edges help
21:28:04  <frosch123> maybe
21:28:13  <V453000> exactly
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21:28:16  <frosch123> anyway, what about the alpha channel?
21:28:23  <frosch123> are you dropping that one, or keeping?
21:28:30  <V453000> what do you mean?
21:28:36  <V453000> that it should be 0,0,1,1?
21:28:45  <V453000> or how do I handle it?
21:29:06  <frosch123> real 8bpp graphics have no alpha channel, only pure transparency and pure opaqueness
21:29:21  <frosch123> you could use the palette colours but still use alpha at the edges
21:29:24  <V453000> yes
21:29:31  <V453000> the image on the right has only 0 or 1 alpha
21:29:38  <V453000> right
21:29:45  <V453000> that's another thing I was considering yes
21:29:58  <V453000> but having big filesizes for rgba just because of alpha edges sounds like a big thing
21:30:03  <V453000> if palette colours then full 8bpp
21:30:28  <frosch123> i do not quite remember whether we implented palette+alpha in nml
21:30:33  <frosch123> but grf supports it
21:30:42  <V453000> hm
21:30:49  <V453000> well this is replace only
21:31:04  <V453000> does that make a limitation?
21:31:07  <V453000> aka base set shiz
21:31:17  <andythenorth> V453000: there is a phenomemon with no name, where artefacts seem nicer because they feel like a real person made it
21:31:25  <andythenorth> you have managed to automate that result :P
21:31:35  <frosch123> well, ground tiles should not leave semi-transparent holes :)
21:31:38  <V453000> andythenorth: the edges are actually not artefacts, they are a result of totally purposeful function
21:31:51  <frosch123> i think ground tiles are generally easier without alpha
21:31:51  <andythenorth> I mean artefacts = objects, pictures, etc :)
21:31:52  <V453000> normally I could just discard the alpha and keep the colour
21:31:55  <V453000> ah
21:32:16  <V453000> frosch123: I already postproduce ground tiles to never have alpha
21:32:22  <V453000> that's fine
21:32:27  <andythenorth> but purposeful is almost same idea tvh
21:33:30  <V453000> idk andythenorth, some artefacts are clear that it's done by a dumb computer
21:33:46  <V453000> or a drunk super artist who feels like it's his "expression" which is dumb
21:34:41  <andythenorth> ha
21:35:53  <andythenorth> wow, who are the Win 95 or Solaris maintainers? o_O https://www.openttd.org/en/about
21:36:42  <frosch123> the win95 farm still runs
21:37:26  <frosch123> bsd stuff has lots of ifdefs in ottd, and afaik still compiles
21:37:51  <frosch123> i think there was one solaris guy here in the past 5 years :p
21:38:11  <__ln__> who?
21:40:52  <frosch123> MagisterQuis wrote in chat in 2014 that he/she compile openttd on solaris in 2008
21:41:31  <__ln__> that's stretching the concept of 'the past 5 years'
21:42:52  <Milek7> >__ln__  indeed a fork where the doctrine of maintaining compatibility with old savegames forever was dropped would attract new contributions
21:42:57  <Milek7> it doesn't looks like there is problem with contributions, rather with absolute zero possiblity of changing something in trunk
21:45:03  <andythenorth> is this against NRT?  /me can’t tell :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6538
21:45:57  <__ln__> Milek7: and due to the zero possibility (which people realize), many don't even bother
21:46:59  <andythenorth> it’s not zero :) https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=shortlog
21:47:09  <andythenorth> loads of changes there ;)
21:47:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: the chance is zero for changes that only address a single user group
21:48:24  <frosch123> like people who want to remove hills and only play on flat maps :p
21:48:37  <frosch123> imho they should play factorio
21:48:58  <frosch123> btw. factorio lacks hills
21:49:05  <frosch123> it serverly affects replayability for me
21:49:35  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's not against nrt, it's a svn diff for some reason
21:49:48  <V453000> HOLY F
21:49:50  <Milek7> and like these people who reads documentation
21:49:51  <frosch123> possibly the code was changed in nrt
21:50:01  <V453000> I just created 8bpp in photoshop
21:50:09  <V453000> it's using exactly the same formula as I do XD
21:50:15  <Milek7> and wonder why GSTile.GetTownAuthority don't get town authority at all
21:50:16  <V453000> at least it seems that way
21:50:23  <V453000> the colours are precisely the same from what I can tell
21:50:26  <andythenorth> V453000: there’s only so many ways to skin the cat
21:50:29  <Milek7> but i think documentation bugs only affects single user group
21:50:31  <V453000> no andythenorth
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21:50:38  <V453000> there's insane amount of skins of cat in this case
21:50:41  <V453000> like the CIE thing
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21:50:55  <andythenorth> if you try enough, you’ll converge on the one photoshop uses ;)
21:50:56  <V453000> I expected photoshop to use something very fancy
21:51:03  <andythenorth> CIE _is_ fancy :P
21:51:08  <V453000> well yeah sure
21:51:18  <V453000> but photoshop only uses the RGB cube distance comparison
21:51:23  <V453000> which is very primitive
21:51:31  <andythenorth> it’s all just words :)
21:51:36  <V453000> eh not really
21:52:19  <andythenorth> Wolf01: 2017 2H technic: “worst thing ever ever” or “fine” ?
21:52:47  <Wolf01> 2H?
21:52:55  <andythenorth> 2nd half
21:52:57  <andythenorth> of year
21:53:45  <frosch123> V453000: what do you say? photoshop uses the cube distance to get the same result as your cie method?
21:53:52  <frosch123> that sounds weird to me
21:53:57  <V453000> no
21:54:07  <V453000> photoshop uses cube distance to get same result as my cube distance
21:54:08  <V453000> 's all
21:54:20  <V453000> I am surprised it isn't using something super perception based and whatnot
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21:56:05  <frosch123> night
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21:56:34  <andythenorth> also
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