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06:20:42 *** Webster has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 06:20:51 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 07:19:08 *** ODM has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 07:28:46 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 07:43:33 *** Alberth has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 08:09:59 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 966:29f25ad3e758: Codechange: Aligning values of the property dic... (Alberth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/29f25ad3e758 08:16:23 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 08:34:42 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 967:2b11206b0f14: Codechange: Adding some main markers in the file. (Alberth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/2b11206b0f14 08:34:42 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 968:74dc7040a4b5: Doc: Created a placeholder for properties expla... (Alberth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/74dc7040a4b5 09:09:10 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 956:5ea5a898d5bc: Change: Register all sprite groups and sets dur... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/5ea5a898d5bc 09:09:10 <Brot6> NFORenum - Feature #1746 (New): improve warning text (George) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1746 09:13:52 <Alberth> you're a little late with r956, Brot6 09:13:52 <Brot6> hey Alberth 09:14:59 <Alberth> Brot6: don't you ever get bored of repeating those stupid messages to a channel that nobody reads? 09:24:32 <Ammler> :'-( 09:27:38 <Alberth> he's not so fast :) 09:28:12 <Alberth> good morning 09:29:19 <Ammler> I have no idea, how you manged to announce r956 again 09:31:01 <Alberth> the aftermath of the temporal shift that happened early this morning. 09:42:31 <andythenorth_> if there was no brot, I'd code less 09:44:31 *** thgergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 09:45:43 <Alberth> making bot that sends random messages about commits from your repos is doable :p 10:35:12 <Alberth> what does 'unit_conversion' do in the action 0 properties? 10:40:10 *** KenjiE20 has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 10:52:52 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 957:e1b217f0a156: Codechange: Make TRANSPARANT a normal constant. (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/e1b217f0a156 10:52:52 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 955:6f12b0c7592b: Codechange: Generalize the register / resolve s... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/6f12b0c7592b 10:52:52 <Brot6> NFORenum - Feature #1746: improve warning text (Rubidium) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1746#change-4485 11:01:07 <Brot6> Unable to connect to http://dev.openttdcoop.org/sys/: execution expired 11:16:18 <Hirundo> Alberth: 'unit_conversion' is used to handle the difference between e.g. RV and train speed units 11:17:19 <Alberth> I have a conversion of weight for a cargo: 'weight' : {'num' : 0x0F, 'size' : 1, 'unit_type' : 'weight'}, # @TODO: Needs a unit_conversion 1/16 or 16 or 62.5 or 1/62.5 depending on the meaning of the 'unit_conversion'. 11:17:52 <Alberth> ie 16 means 1 ton 11:22:16 <Alberth> but never mind, I'll wait until someone adds some documentation about it 11:23:23 <Hirundo> That's the cargo property? 11:25:02 * Alberth nods 11:25:17 <Alberth> http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Cargos#Weight_of_one_unit_of_the_cargo_0F_ 11:28:01 <Hirundo> There is a certain reference unit (m/s, hp, ton) defined in unit.py 11:29:09 <Hirundo> The value of unit_conversion is equal to 1 such reference unit in nfo terms 11:29:24 <Hirundo> In this case, the value is 16 11:30:41 <Alberth> thank you for your time 11:34:22 <Alberth> do we use sets somewhere? 013_train_callback.nfo and grf have changed 11:36:01 <Alberth> r968, with some cargo property changes, not related to trains 11:38:07 <Alberth> pushed the cargo props 11:38:51 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 963:44c8e3409574: Feature #1695: Make it possible to combine spri... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/44c8e3409574 11:38:51 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 960:07f0c57e0934: Add: Store references to all used sprite sets i... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/07f0c57e0934 11:38:51 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 969:62ebd6624970: Add: Cargo properties (mostly). (Alberth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/62ebd6624970 11:43:16 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 957:e1b217f0a156: Codechange: Make TRANSPARANT a normal constant. (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/e1b217f0a156 11:43:17 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Feature Request #1747 (New): cargo property changes (Alberth) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1747 11:45:50 <Alberth> Brot is really lost today, I have seen r957 about 40 minutes ago as well 11:48:28 * Hirundo sees the light 11:48:51 <Hirundo> Indeed my recent sprite set code uses sets 11:49:33 <Hirundo> I was confused already yesterday, when regression test seemed to break in some strange manner 11:59:24 <Hirundo> Alberth: Sorting the list by spriteset.name should fix it, right? 11:59:49 <Alberth> if the name is unique, yes 12:04:04 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 963:44c8e3409574: Feature #1695: Make it possible to combine spri... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/44c8e3409574 12:04:04 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 960:07f0c57e0934: Add: Store references to all used sprite sets i... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/07f0c57e0934 12:04:04 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 959:340d0ed2b83d: Add: Store references to all referring sprite g... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/340d0ed2b83d 12:04:06 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 970:a7430f7050f1: Fix: Don't rely on unordered sets to provide a ... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/a7430f7050f1 12:05:19 <Hirundo> Brot has definitely seen better days.... 12:07:04 <Hirundo> Alberth: Thanks for your pointer about sets 12:07:41 <Alberth> sort of standard problem when output changes order seemingly randomly :) 12:08:47 <Alberth> problem is that some python dev considered it useful to use id() as compare criterium, so you sort on memory address 12:10:03 <Alberth> It also makes that max(2.5, "hai") does not give an error :( 12:43:47 <Alberth> andythenorth_: quaryy and builders yard are conviently together to deliver to/from a cement plant 12:44:11 <andythenorth_> Alberth: screenshot? 12:45:12 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/cement_cargoes.png 12:45:49 <Alberth> clay pit is also nicely positioned, but probably by accident 12:48:39 <Alberth> hmm, elsewhere I have a builders yard and clay pit close together 14:28:17 <Alberth> a Builders yard never stops threatening to close down in 30 months? 14:41:18 <Hirundo> Alberth: How urgent is your need for *someone* to document action0properties? 14:42:23 <andythenorth_> Alberth: looks like a bug :P 14:43:23 *** andythenorth_ has quit IRC 14:48:52 *** pm has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 14:49:06 *** pm is now known as planetmaker 14:50:17 <planetmaker> good evening 14:57:30 <Hirundo> hello pm 15:11:05 *** thgergo has quit IRC 15:29:48 <Alberth> hello planetmaker 15:34:51 *** Levi has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 15:35:12 *** thgergo has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 15:40:58 <Alberth> Hirundo: look at it this way, due to not documenting (in this case the properties list data structure) I am guessing what things mean, searching in code, asking questions, waiting for answers, you helping me, spending time on different things than what you work on. 15:40:58 <Alberth> I asked twice already now, and people cannot be bothered apparently. So should I be bothered to waste my time looking for clues in random pieces of code? I think not. 15:41:18 <Alberth> (sorry, I am a bit pissed. I know you mean well.) 16:31:28 <Ammler> Feature: [Makefile] build from source bundle and make rpm <-- what does "make rpm"? 16:32:06 <Ammler> in opengfx changelog 0.3.1 16:34:16 <planetmaker> is that a question for me? 16:34:23 <Ammler> I assume so 16:34:36 * planetmaker feels like reading that commit message the first time 16:34:47 <Ammler> I read it from the changelog 16:34:51 <Ammler> the top line 16:34:57 <planetmaker> :-D 16:35:15 <Ammler> but there is no target rpm 16:36:30 <planetmaker> I guess it's ambiguously re-written r488 16:36:40 <Alberth> rpm is package format of red-hat 16:36:42 <planetmaker> Zusammenfassung: Cleanup: those specs are outdated, find up2date specs in .devzone 16:36:49 <planetmaker> and of suse :-) 16:37:11 <Alberth> they just 'stole' it :p 16:37:56 <Alberth> which is probably better than inventing a new format, or using plain tar.gz :) 16:38:04 <planetmaker> :-) quite so 16:56:32 <Ammler> Alberth: I don't think "they stole" it 16:56:39 <Ammler> I would assume, it was opensource 16:56:49 <Alberth> it was, and still is :) 16:56:52 <Ammler> or do you have any sources? 16:57:14 <Ammler> Rubidium: catcodec installs the docs to /usr/share/doc/readme.txt 16:57:57 <Ammler> (using make install DESTDIR=%{buildroot} prefix=%{_prefix}) 16:59:01 <Ammler> should be /usr/share/doc/catcodec/* 16:59:34 <Ammler> as it is with grfcodec 17:01:56 <Ammler> docdir ?= $(datarootdir)/doc/$(PACKAGE_NAME) <-- looks like PACKAGE_NAME is empty 17:06:24 <Ammler> does catcodec have a tracker? 17:09:25 <Rubidium> Ammler: not really 17:09:40 <Ammler> well, then use this ^ as bugreport :-P 17:10:21 <Ammler> my workaround is: make install DESTDIR=%{buildroot} prefix=%{_prefix} PACKAGE_NAME=catcodec 17:10:37 <Brot6> nml: update from r953 to r970 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/nightlies/r970 17:11:10 <planetmaker> wow. Quite some progress 17:11:44 <Ammler> oh, version 1.0.2 should be mentioned maybe 17:13:09 <Rubidium> Ammler: in what way should 1.0.2 be mentioned? 17:14:52 <Rubidium> Ammler: is http://rbijker.net/openttd/ammler.diff enough? 17:18:47 <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r635), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r71), airportsplus (r64), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r7), comic-houses (r71), firs (r1483), fish (r415), frenchtowns (r4), grfcodec (r785), heqs (r479), indonesiantowns (r37), manindu (r5), metrotrackset (r56), newgrf_makefile (r220), nml (r970), nutracks (r117), ogfx-trains (r86), ogfx-trees (r41), opengfx (r554), openmsx (r97), 17:18:47 <Brot6> opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r45), swedishrails (r187), swisstowns (r20), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r23), worldairlinersset (r667) 17:19:03 <Ammler> Rubidium: patch works 17:20:19 <Brot6> airportsplus: compile of r64 still failed (#1741) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/airportsplus/nightlies/ERROR/r64 17:21:43 <Brot6> indonesiantowns: compile of r37 still failed (#1704) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/indonesiantowns/nightlies/ERROR/r37 17:22:06 <Brot6> manindu: compile of r5 still failed (#1742) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/manindu/nightlies/ERROR/r5 17:23:01 <Ammler> at least the town names failure isn't needed 17:23:22 <Ammler> does nml have a option, so it is a bit less pedantic? 17:23:41 <Brot6> swedishrails: rebuild of r187 done (Diffsize: 6) (DiffDiffsize: 8) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/swedishrails/nightlies/r187/log 17:24:02 <Brot6> swisstowns: compile of r20 still failed (#1705) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/swisstowns/nightlies/ERROR/r20 17:24:12 <Brot6> Following repos rebuilds successful without any difference to earlier nightlies builds: belarusiantowns (3 errors) (Diffsize: 21), frenchtowns (4 errors) (Diffsize: 9), ogfx-trains (1 errors) (Diffsize: 12) 17:28:50 <Ammler> It is also not very helpful as regression test if you make those fail just because of new introduced non-required vars 17:29:45 <Ammler> and why belarusain and french doesn't fail is also quite confusing 17:33:05 <Ammler> ah, I see, they don't have the "grf check" :-) 18:10:23 <Rubidium> Ammler: tonight a new source tarball will be made for catcodec 18:10:38 <Ammler> okidoki :-) 18:11:17 <Ammler> suse will soon also make independent packages and build from source 18:23:31 *** avdg has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 18:35:07 *** V453000 is now known as Guest1374 18:39:11 *** michi_cc has quit IRC 18:47:48 *** michi_cc has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 18:58:50 <Hirundo> Ammler: wrt NML backwards compatibility, IMO we should, when possible, (as a transition) support both 'old' and 'new' behaviour and raise a warning if 'old' stuff is encountered 18:59:43 <Hirundo> Alberth: Your comments included '@todo: Define meaning of C{None}' <- what do you mean by that? 19:00:34 <Alberth> properties[x] may contain None. What does that mean? 19:00:49 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 971:86b8249db08a: Doc: Action 0 property features. (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/86b8249db08a 19:00:49 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 972:a15333b04fa7: Doc: The meaning of the action0 property charac... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/a15333b04fa7 19:01:19 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttdcoop.devzone 19:01:34 <Alberth> hello andy 19:03:45 <Hirundo> None is just a placeholder, since sparse lists are not possible 19:03:58 <Hirundo> It currently triggers an internal error, though, which is Bad (tm) 19:04:06 * Hirundo fixes 19:04:52 <Alberth> I appreciate what you are doing, but it is a more general problem, I am afraid 19:05:25 <andythenorth_> evening 19:06:50 <Alberth> andythenorth_: I have a similar case with forest, sawmill, and a Lumber yard 19:08:05 <andythenorth_> is this good or bad? :) 19:08:52 <Alberth> it is effective use of tracks :) 19:09:58 <Brot6> 32bpp-ez-patches: update from r21060 to r21068 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/32bpp-ez-patches/testing/r21068 19:10:03 * andythenorth_ ponders revamping FIRS cargos 19:11:12 <planetmaker> hi andythenorth_ 19:11:30 <andythenorth_> hi 19:11:35 <planetmaker> did mb talk to you long enough that you start fulfilling his cargo wishes? 19:11:56 <andythenorth_> well it's not much good if they're ill-conceived 19:12:16 <andythenorth_> the problem is that ECS has already defined everything correctly, and FIRS isn't following that 19:12:31 <planetmaker> what makes you think that ECS is correct? 19:13:07 <andythenorth_> perhaps it's not 19:13:10 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/sawmill.png 19:13:11 <planetmaker> why is ECS more correct than the default industries? 19:13:14 <planetmaker> It breaks them 19:13:20 <planetmaker> as well as cargos 19:13:39 <andythenorth_> ECS defines real cargos 19:13:56 <andythenorth_> which means that accurate vehicle set graphic support can be provided 19:14:18 <andythenorth_> Alberth: that looks very convenient 19:14:24 <planetmaker> only because some people lack imagination and phantasy to interpret 'supplies' by different cargos doesn't mean it's bad 19:14:32 <andythenorth_> Alberth: there's no code to help with that, you got lucky :) 19:14:51 <planetmaker> supplies allows to have vehicles transporting it, showing a vehicle part or a container or whatever 19:14:55 <planetmaker> it's not wrong by any means 19:15:07 <andythenorth_> but it is wrong to transport glass in a bulk hopper :P 19:15:16 <planetmaker> it's a lack of phantasy and the fear for flexibility which drives people to reject 'supplies' as a good idea 19:15:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: that's a problem of the vehicle set. Not of the industry set 19:15:40 <andythenorth_> building materials should be: glass, timber, cement, bricks, and metalwork 19:15:48 <planetmaker> and transporting glass in a hopper _can_ make sense 19:16:02 <andythenorth_> which means it needs 5 cargo slots not 1. Which cargos shall we eliminate to fit the extra ones in? 19:16:03 <Alberth> straight to the recycling center :p 19:16:16 <planetmaker> I don't follow you, andythenorth_ 19:16:21 <andythenorth_> and we now need 2 builders yards, because there are only three accepted cargo slots 19:16:23 <andythenorth_> planetmaker: best not 19:16:32 <andythenorth_> do something useful instead :P 19:16:40 <planetmaker> ok 19:16:55 * andythenorth_ is grumbling 19:17:32 <andythenorth_> I've learnt from GUI design that you don't get to be correct with GUI problems. You only get to be more or less wrong 19:17:39 <andythenorth_> gameplay design is similar 19:17:53 <Alberth> probably more so 19:17:54 <planetmaker> my fear is: you'll end up in just another boring ECS clone. 19:18:17 <planetmaker> now FIRS is unique and a different concept. And that's great 19:18:32 <andythenorth_> yes, but if I clone ECS, the vehicle support will be beautiful 19:18:33 <planetmaker> not everyone has to like it. Especially not the core designer(s) of ECS 19:18:35 <andythenorth_> a work of art :P 19:18:52 <andythenorth_> the problem is probably that there's no design :P 19:19:00 <Brot6> clientpatches: update from r21060 to r21068 done - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/clientpatches/testing/r21068 19:19:12 <planetmaker> partially yes 19:19:18 <Alberth> won't you get vehicle support, given some time? 19:19:26 <andythenorth_> except there is a design, because I designed it :P 19:19:39 <planetmaker> besides the vehicle support for FIRS - you'll get it 19:19:47 * andythenorth_ has had an inappropriate amount to drink 19:19:52 <andythenorth_> i.e. not enough 19:19:56 <planetmaker> As long as you don't re-define the cargo classes (too much) 19:20:00 <Hirundo> my 2cc: I think the concept of generic cargos (Metal, supplies, building materials) is great, don't change away from that 19:20:01 <planetmaker> of existing cargos 19:20:03 <andythenorth_> I'm not going to touch them 19:20:16 <andythenorth_> they are done for at least a few versions 19:20:21 <planetmaker> I fully agree, Hirundo 19:20:23 <Brot6> serverpatches: compile of r21068 still failed (#1658) - http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/serverpatches/testing/ERROR/r21068 19:20:28 <andythenorth_> I think FIRS 1.0 will ship with these cargos 19:20:38 <andythenorth_> any changes would be in 2.0 or economies 19:20:49 <Hirundo> <Alberth> I appreciate what you are doing, but it is a more general problem, I am afraid <- You mean, that currently no checks on feature validity are done? 19:21:07 * andythenorth_ unponders revamping FIRS cargos :D 19:21:51 <Alberth> good idea, stop changing it for a while, and see what happens 19:22:07 <andythenorth_> one thing that happens is mb complains it's all wrong :P 19:22:29 <planetmaker> yes. Unless you write the grf for him and him alone 19:22:55 <planetmaker> and make it virtually the ecs which george didn't write him 19:22:59 <andythenorth_> he can write his own 19:23:28 <Hirundo> MB's ECS is one of his many vapourwarez... 19:28:53 <Alberth> Hirundo: no, program crashes are not a problem neither are bugs or feature requests. It it this continuously having to wait for you or yexo to give me the information that should be simply available in the code documentation. It is not that documenting code is anything new. I get nowhere this way. 19:29:50 <Hirundo> My current change includes documentation for what 'None' constitutes 19:30:39 <Hirundo> Alberth: I fully understand your problem 19:30:42 <Alberth> Appreciated. I know it is not your fault, but I have had enough of it. 19:31:19 <Hirundo> I'm trying to stay on a thin line between writing code and writing documentation without overdoing either 19:31:49 <Hirundo> My main problem is that I can't see what's 'obvious' c.q. self-documenting and what isn't 19:31:56 <Alberth> errorring at the documentation side usually doesn't hurt :) 19:32:49 <Hirundo> If I want to document all code I'd have to spend months. I don't have that much time before we want to do a release 19:33:21 <Alberth> that's why you don't do that afterwards, you do it at the same time 19:33:26 <Hirundo> Me and Yexo having started this, neither of us having much (if any) python experience doesn't help either 19:34:01 <Hirundo> I'm trying to document all new code I write, but that still leaves a pretty large, often messy, codebase 19:34:24 <Alberth> imho a line describing what a function does, has very little to do with any programming language 19:34:44 <Alberth> and even documenting what goes in and what comes out 19:34:59 <andythenorth_> no docstrings? 19:35:09 <Alberth> nope 19:35:20 <Hirundo> At times, our code isn't as self-documenting as python can be 19:35:37 <Alberth> self-documenting code does not exist, it is a myth 19:35:56 <andythenorth_> docstrings are middlingly useful 19:36:07 <andythenorth_> quite a lot of them I've seen consist of "" 19:36:21 <andythenorth_> or more accurately: """ """ 19:36:24 <Alberth> if documentation is that easy, spending the time to write the text is also short 19:36:29 <Hirundo> a docstring is only as good as the one who wrote it 19:37:35 <Alberth> sure, and it is incomplete, unclear, buggy, and some other bad properties. However, it beats nothing by any standard 19:37:36 <Hirundo> There's no point arguing whether you're right, since you are 19:37:55 <Alberth> I completely agree :) 19:44:59 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 958:f16e28197259: Change: Resolve sprite groups during pre-proces... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/f16e28197259 19:44:59 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 962:35ed440dc196: Codechange: Don't push the feature of the sprit... (Hirundo) @ http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/revisions/35ed440dc196 19:44:59 <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 973:611ecbc235e9: Fix: Correctly handle invalid features and feat... 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